2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

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rikster
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by rikster »

Fair point, but as per usual with Jimbo once he gets a player in mind he pays more than anybody else would regardless of the circumstances. He overpaid for Guddy who was a disaster, he overpaid for Linden Vey who was also terrible, he overpaid for Brandon Sutter who has been below average at best, he threw away a pick for Pedan.
Hi DieHard..

I don't judge transactions against perfection.....sure I'd like to see the team win every deal but that isn't based on reality...

I base the job Bennings done against the other GM's in the leagues track records...

And I look at deals differently based on who had the leverage, the Kesler deal and the Edler signing are examples of transactions Benning made with and without leverage...

As I said in my post, I expect the team to be a lottery team at the next draft but not the draft after that....If Benning is giving Tampa a lottery pick in 2021 then he shouldn't be here...

So they traded a former first rounder who is a very good, young top 6 player for a pick that won't see the NHl for at least 4 years, if he sees it at all....

And you could look at the deal as a 2nd round pick which got elevated to a first round pick because of Millers very favorable contract....

If we are throwing around assumptions to make our arguments, I'm assuming that there were competing offers for Miller and Tampa chose Vancouver because they were the team with the lowest point total making their offer potentially the best...

Take care...

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Diehard1 »

rikster wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:44 pm
Fair point, but as per usual with Jimbo once he gets a player in mind he pays more than anybody else would regardless of the circumstances. He overpaid for Guddy who was a disaster, he overpaid for Linden Vey who was also terrible, he overpaid for Brandon Sutter who has been below average at best, he threw away a pick for Pedan.
Hi DieHard..

I don't judge transactions against perfection.....sure I'd like to see the team win every deal but that isn't based on reality...

I base the job Bennings done against the other GM's in the leagues track records...

And I look at deals differently based on who had the leverage, the Kesler deal and the Edler signing are examples of transactions Benning made with and without leverage...

As I said in my post, I expect the team to be a lottery team at the next draft but not the draft after that....If Benning is giving Tampa a lottery pick in 2021 then he shouldn't be here...

So they traded a former first rounder who is a very good, young top 6 player for a pick that won't see the NHl for at least 4 years, if he sees it at all....

And you could look at the deal as a 2nd round pick which got elevated to a first round pick because of Millers very favorable contract....

If we are throwing around assumptions to make our arguments, I'm assuming that there were competing offers for Miller and Tampa chose Vancouver because they were the team with the lowest point total making their offer potentially the best...

Take care...
Hi Rikster,

Not really sure what you are referring to re: throwing around assumptions, but I will play along. If we assume there were competing offers that’s fine, but for whatever reason Jimbo likes to overpay in picks in his trades. I don’t think his player for player trades are terrible, it’s his insistence on throwing in picks that gets to me. As you said the Bolts saw a 1st from the Nucks as more valuable than other teams which should mean Jimbo can get more back as well. He doesn’t seem to see it that way - if TBay had added a 2nd in return I would be fine with it but Jimbo just doesn’t seem to be able to push other GMs.

If we assume the Nucks are a lottery team this year then it looks better - I just hate cheering for the team to not make the playoffs. We’ve had enough of that as a fan base. I guess you could say it’s a win win for Canuck fans (playoffs or lottery) but I prefer to look at team building as a long term exercise.

I like the player and think he fits well with the team, just wish it wasn't making the deal so we wouldn’t always have to worry about giving up too much.

I’m willing to give Jimbo the rest of the summer to fix the mess he has created - at least two or three of Sutter, Spooner, Schaller, Loui, Goldy, Granlund should be gone - but he’s already given up his most valuable trade chip when it’s hard to see why it was necessary.

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Reefer2 »

Diehard1 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:13 pm
rikster wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:44 pm
Fair point, but as per usual with Jimbo once he gets a player in mind he pays more than anybody else would regardless of the circumstances. He overpaid for Guddy who was a disaster, he overpaid for Linden Vey who was also terrible, he overpaid for Brandon Sutter who has been below average at best, he threw away a pick for Pedan.
Hi DieHard..

I don't judge transactions against perfection.....sure I'd like to see the team win every deal but that isn't based on reality...

I base the job Bennings done against the other GM's in the leagues track records...

And I look at deals differently based on who had the leverage, the Kesler deal and the Edler signing are examples of transactions Benning made with and without leverage...

As I said in my post, I expect the team to be a lottery team at the next draft but not the draft after that....If Benning is giving Tampa a lottery pick in 2021 then he shouldn't be here...

So they traded a former first rounder who is a very good, young top 6 player for a pick that won't see the NHl for at least 4 years, if he sees it at all....

And you could look at the deal as a 2nd round pick which got elevated to a first round pick because of Millers very favorable contract....

If we are throwing around assumptions to make our arguments, I'm assuming that there were competing offers for Miller and Tampa chose Vancouver because they were the team with the lowest point total making their offer potentially the best...

Take care...
Hi Rikster,

Not really sure what you are referring to re: throwing around assumptions, but I will play along. If we assume there were competing offers that’s fine, but for whatever reason Jimbo likes to overpay in picks in his trades. I don’t think his player for player trades are terrible, it’s his insistence on throwing in picks that gets to me. As you said the Bolts saw a 1st from the Nucks as more valuable than other teams which should mean Jimbo can get more back as well. He doesn’t seem to see it that way - if TBay had added a 2nd in return I would be fine with it but Jimbo just doesn’t seem to be able to push other GMs.

If we assume the Nucks are a lottery team this year then it looks better - I just hate cheering for the team to not make the playoffs. We’ve had enough of that as a fan base. I guess you could say it’s a win win for Canuck fans (playoffs or lottery) but I prefer to look at team building as a long term exercise.

I like the player and think he fits well with the team, just wish it wasn't making the deal so we wouldn’t always have to worry about giving up too much.

I’m willing to give Jimbo the rest of the summer to fix the mess he has created - at least two or three of Sutter, Spooner, Schaller, Loui, Goldy, Granlund should be gone - but he’s already given up his most valuable trade chip when it’s hard to see why it was necessary.
Give it up, Rickey sees what he wants to see.

take care.....

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Reefer2 »

rikster wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:16 pm
Reefer2 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:21 pm
Ricky - the point he is making has sweet fuck all to do with this years pick.

Many fans believe it is an over payment for Miller, especially since Tampa was up against the cap so most fans think he could of paid less to get him.
Because you "feel" a better deal was available doesn't mean it was....

My post outlined why I and many others don't have a problem with the deal, if you disagree then share why....

Take care...
Sure, but first read my post and maybe you can spot the words that already answered your question.

Is this a game like trying to find that dude that is hard to spot?

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by The Brown Wizard »

Reefer2 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:35 pm

Is this a game like trying to find that dude that is hard..?
:wow:

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Micky »

The first round pick can always reappear, one way or another. Is J.T. Miller worth one? It depends what a team needs.
He is an excellent player and ONE of our needs was two top six forwards. Now we have one of them.
A player who's skills were being somewhat wasted on a third line in Tampa Bay due to what is called a stacked,
regular season, team. ha-ha.

Vasily Podkolzin at one point has been ranked as (in reality) the 3rd best player in this draft class.
What would his final ranking had been if not for a commitment of two years on St Petersburg KHL's team?
Tough to swallow for Canuck fans because of another Russian prospect who's being led around by his d**k not to mention an ego problem.
Podkolzin was absolutely, BPA. / Nils Hoglander at number two is already playing in the Swedish SHL and could have gone in the late first round.

IMO, the high end defense man/men, we need were never going to be acquired on draft day and obviously, not drafted for immediate service.
At least one defense man will most likely have to be acquired via UFA this off season. Another via trade but without the loss of at least
five or six (untouchable)s.

I will not pass judgement on this version of Benning just yet. I like the acquisition and the drafting.
Now I want to see some passed misdirections corrected, in particular; Eriksson and Sutter.
LE has been an unmitigated disaster since day one, (almost a head case), sorry about the tone of that, but umm...
Sutter is not a foundational player for the Canucks and never will be. He does not fit in with the young core, yet he talks the talk of
a leader. GOSH, that pisses me off. Even more that he's an "A".....hole.

Lets see what happens from now till puck-drop..."Then" maybe time for an assessment.
"evolution"

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Micky »

This statistical link may help indicate how Miller's ice time and value was (maybe) not being fully weaponized within Tampa's organization.. :scowl:
"evolution"

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Micky »

"evolution"

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Micky »

Cool:

"evolution"

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Island Nucklehead »

rikster wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:44 pm
I don't judge transactions against perfection.....sure I'd like to see the team win every deal but that isn't based on reality...

I base the job Bennings done against the other GM's in the leagues track records...

If we are throwing around assumptions to make our arguments, I'm assuming that there were competing offers for Miller and Tampa chose Vancouver because they were the team with the lowest point total making their offer potentially the best...

Take care...
Lookig at the other GMs...This weekend we saw several deals involving teams with Cap difficulty. Nashville got very little of value for a high-impact, top-pairing Dman. Toronto had to give up a first round pick to get out from under the final year of Marleau's deal. Tampa managed to clear cap, and add two draft picks, including a first, for one of their depth wingers. That's what stands out for me. In addition to not wanting to give up picks (particularly first rounders) as a team just trying to exit a rebuild, we don't take advantage of Tampa's cap situation at all.

I view this trade similarly to the Gudbranson deal. It's an overpayment for a complimentary player.

On the ice, however, this should make Horvat's life that much easier. Now if we could just find a way to get rid of the last Centre GMJB overpaid for...

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Micky »

RD; JB talking to your buddies; http://ckstam.streamon.fm/listen-pl-18090
"evolution"

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Madcombinepilot »

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:48 am
rikster wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:44 pm
I don't judge transactions against perfection.....sure I'd like to see the team win every deal but that isn't based on reality...

I base the job Bennings done against the other GM's in the leagues track records...

If we are throwing around assumptions to make our arguments, I'm assuming that there were competing offers for Miller and Tampa chose Vancouver because they were the team with the lowest point total making their offer potentially the best...

Take care...
Lookig at the other GMs...This weekend we saw several deals involving teams with Cap difficulty. Nashville got very little of value for a high-impact, top-pairing Dman. Toronto had to give up a first round pick to get out from under the final year of Marleau's deal. Tampa managed to clear cap, and add two draft picks, including a first, for one of their depth wingers. That's what stands out for me. In addition to not wanting to give up picks (particularly first rounders) as a team just trying to exit a rebuild, we don't take advantage of Tampa's cap situation at all.

I view this trade similarly to the Gudbranson deal. It's an overpayment for a complimentary player.

On the ice, however, this should make Horvat's life that much easier. Now if we could just find a way to get rid of the last Centre GMJB overpaid for...
PK is on the decline, With a massively contract. 2x 2nds and 2 prospects is a bit of an overpayment..

With Callahan on permanent LTIR, Tampa isn't up against the cap like everyone seems to think. Would you have been happy with Miller for 2x2nds?

Benning bashers also overlook that fact that Miller is on an awesome contract. Fits perfect with this teams cap structure. That adds value as well.

Would I have liked Benning to fleece some other team? Absolutely. But this was a hockey trade. We needed something, and paid full price for it. Discounts are nice, but don't always happen. JT goes on to score 20 for the next 4 years, price is worth it.

... now, he shits the bed Erickson style, then We have different conversations 4 years from now.
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by ESQ »

micky107 wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:44 am
This statistical link may help indicate how Miller's ice time and value was (maybe) not being fully weaponized within Tampa's organization.. :scowl:
That is interesting, he had identical production to Johnson and Palat, but did it in 1:20 less ice time. Lots of PP time though.

I think Miller was left to prop up a non-scoring line on his own, but play the first pp unit.

From green's comments, I wonder if Elias might shift back to the wing with Miller in the middle?

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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by Chef Boi RD »

Diehard1 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:13 pm
rikster wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:44 pm
Fair point, but as per usual with Jimbo once he gets a player in mind he pays more than anybody else would regardless of the circumstances. He overpaid for Guddy who was a disaster, he overpaid for Linden Vey who was also terrible, he overpaid for Brandon Sutter who has been below average at best, he threw away a pick for Pedan.
Hi DieHard..

I don't judge transactions against perfection.....sure I'd like to see the team win every deal but that isn't based on reality...

I base the job Bennings done against the other GM's in the leagues track records...

And I look at deals differently based on who had the leverage, the Kesler deal and the Edler signing are examples of transactions Benning made with and without leverage...

As I said in my post, I expect the team to be a lottery team at the next draft but not the draft after that....If Benning is giving Tampa a lottery pick in 2021 then he shouldn't be here...

So they traded a former first rounder who is a very good, young top 6 player for a pick that won't see the NHl for at least 4 years, if he sees it at all....

And you could look at the deal as a 2nd round pick which got elevated to a first round pick because of Millers very favorable contract....

If we are throwing around assumptions to make our arguments, I'm assuming that there were competing offers for Miller and Tampa chose Vancouver because they were the team with the lowest point total making their offer potentially the best...

Take care...
Hi Rikster,

Not really sure what you are referring to re: throwing around assumptions, but I will play along. If we assume there were competing offers that’s fine, but for whatever reason Jimbo likes to overpay in picks in his trades. I don’t think his player for player trades are terrible, it’s his insistence on throwing in picks that gets to me. As you said the Bolts saw a 1st from the Nucks as more valuable than other teams which should mean Jimbo can get more back as well. He doesn’t seem to see it that way - if TBay had added a 2nd in return I would be fine with it but Jimbo just doesn’t seem to be able to push other GMs.

If we assume the Nucks are a lottery team this year then it looks better - I just hate cheering for the team to not make the playoffs. We’ve had enough of that as a fan base. I guess you could say it’s a win win for Canuck fans (playoffs or lottery) but I prefer to look at team building as a long term exercise.

I like the player and think he fits well with the team, just wish it wasn't making the deal so we wouldn’t always have to worry about giving up too much.

I’m willing to give Jimbo the rest of the summer to fix the mess he has created - at least two or three of Sutter, Spooner, Schaller, Loui, Goldy, Granlund should be gone - but he’s already given up his most valuable trade chip when it’s hard to see why it was necessary.
How are you supposed to get J.T. Millers without giving up something of value? I don’t know about you but I’m tired of losing. Yes sure keep Draft picks and go on a slow and tedious decade long rebuild. We just drafted a great prospect in Podkozlin but like all prospects they ain’t making an impact in the NHL 2-3 years from now and that will be the same with the 2020 first and the 2021 first, whichever one will be Tampa’s and not only that, those firsts area not guaranteed good NHL level players. J.T. Miller is a “player” and is “worth” a first, he’s guaranteed. He’s young, signed on a good contract with term. The team in the short term needed help in the top 6 forward group big time. Podkozlin or any 2019 forward would not be helping us in that department in the short term. We have a great young core and when you include your Podkozlins the future looks brilliant. It’s time to start winning, done with losing. Great trade for Vancouver.
Last edited by Chef Boi RD on Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rikster
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Re: 2019 NHL ENTRY DRAFT - Vancouver

Post by rikster »

Would you have been happy with Miller for 2x2nds?
As others have pointed out, with the crazy contracts being given out around the league in advance of UFA, there is real value in having a "value" contract like the one Miller has....

If he had say the Hayes contract, would anyone expect the price to include a first round pick?

I said earlier that I view the deal as a second and a third round pick plus a contract dump for Miller which got elevated to a 1st and a 3rd because of the contracts value, after July 1st I may adjust that to 2 X 3rd round picks with one of the 3rds being elevated to a 1st because of the value of the contract depending on how crazy the GM's get overspending...

I also understand that the player Tampa wanted to unload was Kilorn who is older and has a similar contract and who has never reached 50 points, but the Canucks wanted Miller....

As for July 1st, I really, really hope Benning sits it out and doesn't get involved in the madness.

Take care....

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