Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

User avatar
micky107
MVP
MVP
Posts: 9825
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:27 am

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by micky107 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:12 pm

Is it Green that's going to do this? I have my doubts.
Probably find out by wednesday.
"evolution"

User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
Posts: 15201
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by Hockey Widow » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:15 pm

Two reasons Virtanen's hitting declined.

First he hurt his shoulder and developed some hesitation. Reports are he has fully healed so that leads to reason two.

WD and Green, as part of developing his positions play want(ed) him to pick his spot more and not get out of position as much. They want him to play a systematic hard forechecking game and not run around to make that big hit then be done for the shift type of game. Same problem with Tkchuck, although that kid seems to have more hockey IQ and is producing. But his draw back is the undisciplined play.

This is a common problem with young bangers from junior. They need to learn to play a system and with discipline. I think Virtanen was on the right path and I think we will see his physicality return next year. He may never deliver on that first round promise and we may have to accept that. But he can still become an important bottom nine energy guy good for 20-20 a year.

I'm beginning to think Benning over thinks his high first round picks. Tckchuck is exactly who we wanted when we drafted Virtanen.
The only HW the Canucks need

User avatar
micky107
MVP
MVP
Posts: 9825
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:27 am

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by micky107 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:53 pm

I remember, "boldly", I sure did.
Always a bit nervous of big surgery around draft time.

If we were to win this year, I'd probably contradict myself and take Patrick, go figure.
"evolution"

Lloyd Braun
CC Veteran
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:21 pm

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by Lloyd Braun » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:18 pm

Seems like the core of Benning's system is to draft a player with a "can't teach that!" skillset which he may not be making the most out of, and then hope to coach/develop the gaps in their games. The tool could be a physical gift, could be an elite skill, or could be an off-the-chart hockey IQ, but the key is to find something about a prospect's game that projects to a high level in the NHL and work from that starting point, rather than going the "jack of all trades" route. Couldn't name a specific interview, but I'm pretty sure I've heard him talk about this idea in the past. He seems to gravitate toward prospects he sees standing out among their elite peers in some aspect of the game, and if their overall level of play doesn't reflect that skillset? All the better -- they'll be undervalued.

This approach holds true in an obvious way for a guy like Tryamkin, who was huge, could skate and seemed more athletically coordinated than somebody his size should be, yet was an off-the-board selection who hadn't put his physical tools together and had gone undrafted for the previous two years.

It's also helped with guys like Gaudette and Lockwood whose greatest strengths seem to be (I haven't seen them play, so 'grain of salt') their hockey IQ and engine. Both picks were widely panned because their scorecharts did not appear to justify the selections, but after arriving in college and finding different roles, both players are now excelling and look like legit NHL prospects.

I love this method in the later rounds. Players with solid B- well rounded games and no standout skills tend to become AHL journeymen. Later rounds are a crapshoot anyway, so if the complete game never shows up, so be it.

For first rounders? I'm still mostly thumbs up, but a little more uncertain. Boeser and McCann both seemed like first-round reaches on the scorecharts, but both possessed elite shots that could translate to the NHL. Joulevi didn't stand out like either Sergachev or Chychrun, but among elite competition at the World Juniors, his hockey IQ, coolness under pressure, and ability to use his teammates were off the chart for a 17-year-old. This is stuff you can't teach -- unless you're Ryan Kesler trying to find a snap shot... :roll:

But first rounders are less of a crapshoot so busts count for more, and a player with a well-rounded B+ or A- game can be a very useful NHLer. I still support the strategy, but it's not the slam dunk that it is in the later rounds.

So why say all this??

It's a fancy way of saying that I have no fuckin clue why people see Virtanen as a "safe" selection. I've been reading some of the backlogs within this and other threads, and so this reply is general, and not targeted at any particular poster or thread.

Virtanen fits right into that Benning mould of looking for standout skillsets. Players with his combination of skating, physical play and shot do not come along often. In comparison, Tkachuk played a FAR more complete game in junior, was known for using his teammates well, for dominating down low play in the offensive zone, but doesn't have similar wheels to Jake, and therefore lacks the same kind of fast transition. They are both physical players and are built similarly at a thick 6'1/6'2, but that's where the similarities stop. Virtanen was incredibly raw whereas Tkachuk was a polished player whose knock was that his skating might not translate to the NHL. Around the time of the draft, the talking heads were continuously referring to Virtanen as "a project", because that's exactly what he was. His stats were terrible for a top-10 drafted winger and his assist rates were atrocious for any top-line CHL forward. The goal scoring seemed to come solely from his physical gifts -- from being able to bull his way past teenagers and unload his big shot. But he wasn't anywhere near the same calibre of CHL player as the guys he was drafted around. He hadn't put the pieces together.

Fast forward a couple of years and he's still a project. He's still a guy with skills that project to a very high level in the NHL, but who needs to be coached / developed into finding a complete game. The process that HW comments on, which has seen his physical play decline, is part of that development curve.

Obviously, it would've been great if he'd found his complete game more quickly. I was never high on the pick (though I wasn't as low on it as some), but I think it's safe to say he's been a modest disappointment so far. It would've been good to see the "bull to the net and use his shot" approach translate to more than 9 goals in 65 AHL games this year -- even while he's being coached away from that approach, toward using his teammates and playing a more patient and structured game.

But those who call him a "safe pick"? Who seem to associate the term "risk" with only high skill-level smaller guys?

Virtanen was always a risky pick, and always a project. His selection was never about "playing it safe".

User avatar
The Brown Wizard
CC Legend
Posts: 8877
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: in the shed with a fresh packed bowl

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by The Brown Wizard » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:10 pm

A good coaching staff would stir up his bloodlust and turn him into a heat seeker on a hard forechecking line. He hits like a fuckin tank and that should be his goal. Points will follow.
If Green gets hired and brings the same stick checking garbage brand of hockey...we are in for a lot more pain. It worries me hes been trying to teach the kid to be anything that gets his focus off what hes the best at...putting dudes on their ass.
Witchcraft... Oh, but it IS. A dark and terrible magic...

User avatar
SKYO
CC Legend
Posts: 11010
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by SKYO » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:32 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Stick the fork in another Mike Gillis fail - Cassels. He's done
Don't write Cassels off just yet.

Comets fan:
I'm a 3 year STH and in my opinion, Cassels has been very good defensively. Yeah, he's not putting up a crazy amount of points, but is anyone really going crazy on points in Utica?

Cassels has been very solid defensively and has been used all season on the PK and during the late stages of games when defending is a priority.
Apparently Andrew said his boy will peak at best as a 3rd liner center.

Imo if he was in college he'd be able to develop till he was 23 ish unscathed by expectations and be able to become a strong checking center (which seems will be his niche now)...I'd keep him to let him play and be a leader in Utica soon as most of the vets in the AHL are like 26 and older and get more responsibility ala NHL vets.

Coles way to the pro's will have to be by playing a nasty/gritty/checking game, mr reliable checker, if he can be a great faceoff guy as a righty all the better.

He'll be the type to come out of nowhere as a 23, 24 year old and be a solid contributor in a depth role down the road, if he can master that checking game.
A long time ago, a baseball player remarked: "If I owned a ballclub, I'd hire a $5,000 coach and a $15,000 scout."

User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
Posts: 15201
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by Hockey Widow » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:41 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:A good coaching staff would stir up his bloodlust and turn him into a heat seeker on a hard forechecking line. He hits like a fuckin tank and that should be his goal. Points will follow.
If Green gets hired and brings the same stick checking garbage brand of hockey...we are in for a lot more pain. It worries me hes been trying to teach the kid to be anything that gets his focus off what hes the best at...putting dudes on their ass.
I think you miss the point. They are not trying to coach him off his game, in the long run. They are trying to develop structure and discipline so he has a more well rounded game that earns him the trust of his coach and teammates. Once he has learned what he needs to learn he will be far more effective in knocking people on their ass. Well that's the theory anyway.
The only HW the Canucks need

User avatar
micky107
MVP
MVP
Posts: 9825
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:27 am

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by micky107 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:55 am

I don't know. IMO, Jake should never be discouraged from driving to the net and scoring goals.
One day, he'll forget how.. :(
"evolution"

User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
Posts: 15201
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by Hockey Widow » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:21 am

micky107 wrote:I don't know. IMO, Jake should never be discouraged from driving to the net and scoring goals.
One day, he'll forget how.. :(

He isn't. He is being encouraged to do it more often, with consistency. Not just the occasional burst with a ton of flybys thrown in.

It's a similar story to Horvat. He had next to zero offence his first year. He was coached to be more defensively aware and develop a consistent game. WD said many times he wasn't worried about the offence, it would come. And he was right.

Jake's confidence was in the toilet after his last worlds. He took a beating in the national press and was almost single handedly blamed for our embarrassment of a loss. His points will come when he gets more ice and he will get more ice when he isn't a liability and is generating offensive chances.
The only HW the Canucks need

User avatar
The Brown Wizard
CC Legend
Posts: 8877
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: in the shed with a fresh packed bowl

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by The Brown Wizard » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:29 am

Hockey Widow wrote:
Uncle dans leg wrote:A good coaching staff would stir up his bloodlust and turn him into a heat seeker on a hard forechecking line. He hits like a fuckin tank and that should be his goal. Points will follow.
If Green gets hired and brings the same stick checking garbage brand of hockey...we are in for a lot more pain. It worries me hes been trying to teach the kid to be anything that gets his focus off what hes the best at...putting dudes on their ass.
I think you miss the point. They are not trying to coach him off his game, in the long run. They are trying to develop structure and discipline so he has a more well rounded game that earns him the trust of his coach and teammates. Once he has learned what he needs to learn he will be far more effective in knocking people on their ass. Well that's the theory anyway.
I understand what you're getting at. Theres no point Jake flying around with no direction but with what the coaches and manangement have turned this franchise into on the ice, i have reservations about their vision.
This team is the wimpiest group I've ever watched play NHL hockey. What do we register like 5 hits a night or something in our own rink?
Witchcraft... Oh, but it IS. A dark and terrible magic...

BladesofSteel
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1546
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:29 pm
Location: Lower left-hand corner

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by BladesofSteel » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:30 am

Biega did, the rest of the squad usually managed an additional 3-4.

nuckster
MVP
MVP
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by nuckster » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:02 am

Uncle dans leg wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:
Uncle dans leg wrote:A good coaching staff would stir up his bloodlust and turn him into a heat seeker on a hard forechecking line. He hits like a fuckin tank and that should be his goal. Points will follow.
If Green gets hired and brings the same stick checking garbage brand of hockey...we are in for a lot more pain. It worries me hes been trying to teach the kid to be anything that gets his focus off what hes the best at...putting dudes on their ass.
I think you miss the point. They are not trying to coach him off his game, in the long run. They are trying to develop structure and discipline so he has a more well rounded game that earns him the trust of his coach and teammates. Once he has learned what he needs to learn he will be far more effective in knocking people on their ass. Well that's the theory anyway.
I understand what you're getting at. Theres no point Jake flying around with no direction but with what the coaches and manangement have turned this franchise into on the ice, i have reservations about their vision.
This team is the wimpiest group I've ever watched play NHL hockey. What do we register like 5 hits a night or something in our own rink?
This is where the Sedin's fall short in their modelling for rookies on how to play - there's no finish the check or take the body approach. Mind you, how else would two oldhockey players continue to survive at their age in this league?

Bye the way, i recall flack being thrown at Linden for not being physical. That's BS! No he didn't fight, but yes, he did finish checks in a physical way.
cc oldtimer

User avatar
SKYO
CC Legend
Posts: 11010
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by SKYO » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:43 am

nuckster wrote:This is where the Sedin's fall short in their modelling for rookies on how to play - there's no finish the check or take the body approach. Mind you, how else would two oldhockey players continue to survive at their age in this league?

Bye the way, i recall flack being thrown at Linden for not being physical. That's BS! No he didn't fight, but yes, he did finish checks in a physical way.
True, Sedins and Linden are Mr nice guys, they got the heart of a champion, but not the mindset, they don't have that EDGE to their game, that killer instinct. So let's hope Linden just stays on the business side of the game as president of operations, that's his bread and butter as he can run a successful business in fitness.

Yzerman, Neely, Shanahan, Blake all had that edge to their game and it will probably translate well for their respective teams at a management level. Stevie Y though gonna have some problems with their cap.
A long time ago, a baseball player remarked: "If I owned a ballclub, I'd hire a $5,000 coach and a $15,000 scout."

User avatar
micky107
MVP
MVP
Posts: 9825
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:27 am

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by micky107 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:22 am

SKYO wrote:
nuckster wrote:This is where the Sedin's fall short in their modelling for rookies on how to play - there's no finish the check or take the body approach. Mind you, how else would two oldhockey players continue to survive at their age in this league?

Bye the way, i recall flack being thrown at Linden for not being physical. That's BS! No he didn't fight, but yes, he did finish checks in a physical way.
True, Sedins and Linden are Mr nice guys, they got the heart of a champion, but not the mindset, they don't have that EDGE to their game, that killer instinct. So let's hope Linden just stays on the business side of the game as president of operations, that's his bread and butter as he can run a successful business in fitness.

Yzerman, Neely, Shanahan, Blake all had that edge to their game and it will probably translate well for their respective teams at a management level. Stevie Y though gonna have some problems with their cap.
Yes, let's hope when callers come calling, It's Benning's voice they hear and negotiate with.
Long forgotten situation, which happened around the same time as the Aquilinis purchasing the team.
Linden was lauded and praised by many for his huge last minute role in ending the lock-out for the 2004/2005 season. But make no mistake, there were those that hated what he did and felt he sold out.
As years have gone by, many of the principals from those days, are heavily involved still. Not as players maybe but other areas of the game.
This was the red flag for me in the President Linden signing. Even if it isn't much, it's something.
That's why you'll often hear me say I want to hear more Jim and less Trevor.
"evolution"

Ronning's Ghost
MVP
MVP
Posts: 978
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:25 pm
Location: New Westminster

Re: Canucks News and Notes 2016/17

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:06 am

micky107 wrote: Yes, let's hope when callers come calling, It's Benning's voice they hear and negotiate with.
Long forgotten situation, which happened around the same time as the Aquilinis purchasing the team.
Linden was lauded and praised by many for his huge last minute role in ending the lock-out for the 2004/2005 season. But make no mistake, there were those that hated what he did and felt he sold out.
As years have gone by, many of the principals from those days, are heavily involved still. Not as players maybe but other areas of the game.
The sensible strategy, which I hope they are following, is compartmentalization of duties. Linden for dealing with the league, where is role in ending the lock-out should be remembered as a favour that they owe him, and Benning (club member and good ol' boy) for dealing with the other GMs.

Locked