The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

[Aaronp18]

I think if he's getting the second most ice time of the centres for the next five years this won't be a very good team. A useful toolsy player but not a second line centre on a good team.

Here's the thing, by the time we are a good team again he may not be getting the second most use time of our centres! If he happens to be our second best centre and were a good team, he's well worth $4.35M.

Right now he is our second line centre, he will log the ice time to warrant it. And will likely put up the points with that ice time. He's also shown diversity in his game to spot on the wing with the Sedins. Even right now he's paid like a second line centre because he is our second line centre. Take a look at some of the salaries around the league, a $4.35M centre gets you a decent second line centre or perhaps a very good third line centre.

By the time he becomes a third line centre, the good third line centres on contending teams will be paid close to $5M per year.

So really, he's either going to be a bargain of a second line centre if he's putting up the points in that role. Or he'll be a well paid 3rd line centre if we have 2 other centres better than him! If that's the case I'd predict we're back to contender status and I have no problem with Sutter making $4.35M in either of those roles.

The hate for Sutter's contract really isn't justified, especially if you look at who the other centres are around the league making between $4-4.5M per years. It's market value. Especially for someone of his caliber entering UFA years.

[SKYO]

5ga, good thing we got Miller one more season to help Markstrom, one more year should be good.

[Island Nucklehead]

The hate for Sutter's contract really isn't justified, especially if you look at who the other centres are around the league making between $4-4.5M per years. It's market value. Especially for someone of his caliber entering UFA years.

It's a worrisome trend that Benning has a tendency to wind up on the high-side of contract negotiations. Sutter is likely overpaid by a couple hundred grand. Again, not back-breaking in isolation, but combine that with the $750K Dorsett is being overpaid, or the $1Mish Sbisa is overpaid, and it starts to add up.

And it's hard to say it's a market value contract when he will literally be the highest paid forward to never have scored more than 40 points when the contract kicks in.

[SKYO]

In the big scheme of things regarding this new team, the Dorsett/Sbisa contracts are petty things to cherry pick an argument with.

- Overall JB is doing an amicable job to rebuild this once aging/old and stale team.

- Be nice to see what a full healthy team can do next season as it's hard to justify all the transactions at this point.

- As long as we continue on this path of developing the young guns, this team should be on the right path moving forward.

[Strangelove]

It's a worrisome trend that Benning has a tendency to wind up on the high-side of contract negotiations. Sutter is likely overpaid by a couple hundred grand. Again, not back-breaking in isolation, but combine that with the $750K Dorsett is being overpaid, or the $1Mish Sbisa is overpaid, and it starts to add up.

... aaaaand the Tanev contract makes up for all of that (assuming you're correct Island Nickle+Dime).

Hey, every team in the league has a few contracts like that.

Yes you pay a little more for UFA years, but Benning is making sure he has plenty of younger/cheaper players.

(Benning re-signed Baertchi, Biega, Markstrom, etc to cheap deals)

"worrisome"

[Aaronp18]

The hate for Sutter's contract really isn't justified, especially if you look at who the other centres are around the league making between $4-4.5M per years. It's market value. Especially for someone of his caliber entering UFA years.

It's a worrisome trend that Benning has a tendency to wind up on the high-side of contract negotiations. Sutter is likely overpaid by a couple hundred grand. Again, not back-breaking in isolation, but combine that with the $750K Dorsett is being overpaid, or the $1Mish Sbisa is overpaid, and it starts to add up.

And it's hard to say it's a market value contract when he will literally be the highest paid forward to never have scored more than 40 points when the contract kicks in.

Why are you worried? It's not your money!

We aren't contending right now and we aren't cap strapped. There wasn't a plethora of players available for similar dollar values that would've made us cup contenders.

We had some great contracts from Gillis that have proved impossible to move because of all the NTCs added to them for a lower dollar value.

Sbisa, Dorsett and Sutter's contracts will be of no concern when we need cap space! Sutter will be worth his and the others will be gone.

And without the rash of freak injuries this season Brandon would've definitely cleared 40. And he will next year, mark it!

[Island Nucklehead]

Why are you worried? It's not your money!

We aren't contending right now and we aren't cap strapped. There wasn't a plethora of players available for similar dollar values that would've made us cup contenders.

We had some great contracts from Gillis that have proved impossible to move because of all the NTCs added to them for a lower dollar value.

Sbisa, Dorsett and Sutter's contracts will be of no concern when we need cap space! Sutter will be worth his and the others will be gone.

Imagine, Benning signs Riley Nash and Patrick Bordeleau to matching $4.5M per year contracts on July 1st, and nobody can bitch about it because it's not their money.

This is such a silly line of thinking, because it implies Benning will flip the switch and start signing good deals when the team is competitive again. But hold on a sec, Benning thought this was a 100-point team. He's not loading up on shitty contracts on purpose to gain other assets or help the tank (Toronto), he's marched us right up to the cap with the assumption that this is a playoff-calibre hockey team.

Do you think when Sbisa and Dorsett are gone he will say "okay, now let's spend that money on good players" ?

[Island Nucklehead]

It's a worrisome trend that Benning has a tendency to wind up on the high-side of contract negotiations. Sutter is likely overpaid by a couple hundred grand. Again, not back-breaking in isolation, but combine that with the $750K Dorsett is being overpaid, or the $1Mish Sbisa is overpaid, and it starts to add up.

... aaaaand the Tanev contract makes up for all of that (assuming you're correct Island Nickle+Dime).

Yes, the Tanev extension is easily the best contract he's handed out.

Yes you pay a little more for UFA years, but Benning is making sure he has plenty of younger/cheaper players.

Why is he worried about UFA years for chumps like Sbisa? The guy would hit free agency and love to sign the deal he's currently got. I don't see a long list of teams looking to drop $4M on the Wart. Weren't you part of the group that thought even his Qualifying Offer was too much?

[dbr]

Without getting into debating the debate...

I think Bennings moves are mostly improving over time. Sutter for example, I'm okay with. I do think he ended up on the high side of contract negotiations yet again, which is frustrating but I won't make a mountain of it here.

His drafting is obviously very encouraging. I wish he'd hold onto more of his picks and if he's done flipping them for Willie's Kids and his discount bin finds I'm happy with that but if this goes on for much longer it will be a real problem.

When he was hired I believed this team could get a fair bit younger and remain competitive for some years with a lot of the guys already on board, since then my expectations have changed somewhat (partially due to moves made by Benning and partially due to outcomes that were probably beyond his control) and it's pretty clear that barring catching lightning in a bottle with a handful of very young prospects we are not going to be contending any time soon.

As such I expect this team to fight the good fight on the ice and restock the cupboards for when the Sedins retire and we really bottom out and I'm okay with that.

[Ronning's Ghost]

....it's pretty clear that barring catching lightning in a bottle with a handful of very young prospects we are not going to be contending any time soon.

As such I expect this team to fight the good fight on the ice and restock the cupboards for when the Sedins retire and we really bottom out and I'm okay with that.

Maybe this is the source of some of the differences in perspective on how Benning's moves are viewed. I had hoped there was still a chance for the Canucks to reload and be contenders while the Sedins were still making significant contributions (perhaps at the 'elite second line' level that was often projected to be their ceiling). Benning and Linden had intimated that they were pursuing this approach. If what the Canucks are really looking at is 6-8 year rebuild, that puts all of Benning's move in a different light, but it also implies that either a) he and Linden misjudged the state of the team they inherited, or b) they were being somewhat disingenuous.

[Topper]

Sbisa has greatly improved and is easily a top four on the Canucks.

Vey has become very serviceable and is now a regular on the PK..

The pee party needs to get their heads above "water" and look at this season's performances.

[Island Nucklehead]

Sbisa has greatly improved and is easily a top four on the Canucks.

Vey has become very serviceable and is now a regular on the PK..

The pee party needs to get their heads above "water" and look at this season's performances.

... and their stellar performances have the team in the basement.

I'd prefer Benning not drop 2nd rounders to buy a couple years of a "serviceable player". We (and any other NHL club) could've had Vey for the cost of a waiver claim.

Moves like the Etem trade are fine, it's junk for junk. Brandon Pirri went for a 6th. There's no reason for us to be throwing 2nds around for players like Vey.

[Aaronp18]

Imagine, Benning signs Riley Nash and Patrick Bordeleau to matching $4.5M per year contracts on July 1st, and nobody can bitch about it because it's not their money.

This is such a silly line of thinking, because it implies Benning will flip the switch and start signing good deals when the team is competitive again. But hold on a sec, Benning thought this was a 100-point team. He's not loading up on shitty contracts on purpose to gain other assets or help the tank (Toronto), he's marched us right up to the cap with the assumption that this is a playoff-calibre hockey team.

You can bitch about it all you want. My concern would be the wasted cap space where other players could be available to sign of extend and now we don't have the room to do that. We aren't anywhere near that, and we needed players to fill out our roster. Players who could bring a certain work ethic and dynamic to the team for the younger players to learn from.

Benning signed guys betting that they would improve and provide something to the team that no player in free agency could. Sbisa is 26, he's the most physical defenseman we have, he's improved greatly over last season - signing someone of his ilk as an UFA would cost around $3.6M per year. Especially without a NTC.

Dorsett provides stability and versatility on the 4th, with the ability to move throughout the lineup. He's probably overpaid a tad but again, no NTC. If we need to move him in a couple years to make room so be it. But he's hard working, and brings an effort level the youth should emulate.

It's pretty cyclical and happens throughout the league when there's a poor UFA market that teams may spend a little more in order to hang onto guys. Assessing market value, he obviously didn't feel they could find players for less that could provide what these guys could. I really don't see who else was ready and available to Vancouver.

Benning's goal has been all along to make the playoffs, and this team could've if not for all the injury issues. Now it's about giving the kids some experience and helping individuals make strides in their game.

Again, if contracts like this start hurting the teams ability to hang onto developed prospects or sign guys willing to come play in Vancouver then there's an issue. But all these contracts are shorter term, lacking NTCs and will likely be gone before it's ever a concern.

[Cousin Strawberry]

Hey man 23rd overall is still better than 30th.
Imagine being a coiler fan. Anything out of the basement is an improvement

[Aaronp18]

I'd prefer Benning not drop 2nd rounders to buy a couple years of a "serviceable player". We (and any other NHL club) could've had Vey for the cost of a waiver claim.

Vey was a gamble. He was known by his head coach, was buried in LA behind some pretty good centres and was putting up quite decent numbers in the AHL.

He wouldn't have cleared waivers at the time.

And we lacked centres, especially in Vey's age group. It's really quite easy to see why the risk was taken to acquire Vey.