The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

[Lancer]

2nd rounders for prospects that can help is not a bad thing IMHO. The fact that Vey shit the bed is a bit of a boner but GM's will make those mistakes. Baerstchi has turned out okay and Granlund - well jury's out until next season but he showed well until his season was ended with surgery. We'll see how he does next year either on the 2nd or 3rd line.

Both players fit the mold of players who were further along in development. Benning deserves some patience with both players until they hit UFA.

[Island Nucklehead]

By your rationale maybe the team should just decline picking in the 2nd and 3rd rounds

Nah, I'm just saying we shouldn't act like trading away 3 2nd rounders in 3 years means that we're not in the middle of a re-build and/or that Benning has fucked up the re-build.

2nd rounders are nice, but only 1 in 100 will turn a franchise around (e.g. PK Subban).

The guys we've traded draft picks for aren't likely to turn a franchise around, either. Not sure what the point is.

2nd rounders for prospects that can help is not a bad thing IMHO. The fact that Vey shit the bed is a bit of a boner but GM's will make those mistakes. Baerstchi has turned out okay and Granlund - well jury's out until next season but he showed well until his season was ended with surgery. We'll see how he does next year either on the 2nd or 3rd line.

Both players fit the mold of players who were further along in development. Benning deserves some patience with both players until they hit UFA.

I think the unnerving thing isn't any of these deals in islolation, but the trend to throw draft picks around freely in so many deals. It's not just Baertschi/Vey/Granlund, but adding picks to Kassian for Prust, adding a pick to Jensen for Etem, trading down for Sutter, packaging essentially two top-35 picks for Gudbranson. The trend is the guy doesn't mind throwing picks away, precisely at a time when the Canucks need the picks.

Yeah yeah, none of those picks alone make a difference, but this team could easily have 8-10 more prospects right now, and the on-ice performance would be no different.

[Blob Mckenzie]

By your rationale maybe the team should just decline picking in the 2nd and 3rd rounds

Nah, I'm just saying we shouldn't act like trading away 3 2nd rounders in 3 years means that we're not in the middle of a re-build and/or that Benning has fucked up the re-build.

2nd rounders are nice, but only 1 in 100 will turn a franchise around (e.g. PK Subban).

So two of say Montour, Raddysh, Point or Dvorak wouldn't greatly assist this rebuild at all ?

[Meds]

By your rationale maybe the team should just decline picking in the 2nd and 3rd rounds

Nah, I'm just saying we shouldn't act like trading away 3 2nd rounders in 3 years means that we're not in the middle of a re-build and/or that Benning has fucked up the re-build.

2nd rounders are nice, but only 1 in 100 will turn a franchise around (e.g. PK Subban).

What franchise did PK Subban turn around?

[Hockey Widow]

Benning year one screwed us. Management walked away after a 100+ point season thinking all we needed was a couple of upgrades to compete. Thinking our vets had more in the tank than they did. It dictated what happened year two which was in part excused due to a tremendous amount of injuries. By mid year three reality set in.

I'm not sure Benning could have gotten anything more for the vets he did trade with perhaps the exception of the two he couldn't trade, Vrbata and Hamhuis. But if year one was handled like now then we wouldn't have had a Vey, or Etem, or Clendenning or Granlund or Baertschi or Gudbranson, or Miller or Sutter or Eriksson or......but to delete all of that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's not all bad.

Two ways of looking at the entire body or work, some bad, some good, but none of it happens in isolation.

[SKYO]

Word Benning traded a shitload of picks, but to be fair he also accumulated picks as well.

traded 12 picks away
acquired 10 picks.

[Strangelove]

I think Grabner does have some relevance, because its the loss of all players in Grabner's generation that has left Benning in the position he's in, and its the reason he can't do a quick re-tool like the Sharks and Ducks (as IN pointed out).

I'm not saying Grabner is the cure to all of the Canucks problems, but he's emblematic of the problem of having practically nothing to show for a decade of drafting.

My point is, there's nothing Benning could have done to make up for essentially no first round picks from 2005 to 2012, and Mason Raymond being the best forward drafted in that period that had an impact for the Canucks.

The rebuild had started under Gillis' watch, and the biggest piece of the youth movement thus far was acquired by Gillis. It continued in Benning's year one with the team trading two of their veteran top-4 D and one of the best shutdown centers in the game. In spite of re-building and shipping out vets, Benning's team made the playoffs on the strength of a Sedin bounceback and one solid UFA signing in Vrbata.

Now we're in year 3 (or 3.5, going back to the Luongo trade) of the re-build, with 4 players remaining from 2013/14, and surprise surprise its painful. With a 70+ point bounceback by the Sedins and a Vrbata-like performance from Eriksson, we may be a playoff team again, but its much more unlikely for the stars to align at this stage of the re-build. Alternatively, if the Sedins maintain and Horvat, Baertschi, Boeser get 60+ points, we could be right in the thick of it.

But what more can you really ask in a re-build? Young players are getting a shot, high picks are being acquired, vets have been shipped out steadily for 3 years, and there is a sliver of hope that with a lot of good luck, they can be competitive.

That is one helluva post right there!

[Blob Mckenzie]

Word Benning traded a shitload of picks, but to be fair he also accumulated picks as well.

traded 12 picks away
acquired 10 picks.

So he's down two picks and he has likely moved the higher picks overall. You can't give him credit for the pick for Tortorella; not sure if you did. Look at how teams like Phoenix and Toronto are doing it by acquiring EXTRA picks.

Those teams have far better young players/prospects than Vancouver. THAT should be the goal.

[Island Nucklehead]

Word Benning traded a shitload of picks, but to be fair he also accumulated picks as well.

traded 12 picks away
acquired 10 picks.

Lots of needless deckchairs being shuffled there... Easily could have filled many of those holes (Pedan, Dorsett, Prust, Etem, Larsen) through waivers or UFA, while having little reason to do some of the others.

Again, easily could have 8-10 more prospects than we do currently, with no difference in performance.

[Strangelove]

You can't give him credit for the pick for Tortorella; not sure if you did.

He didn't.

Look at how teams like Phoenix and Toronto are doing it by acquiring EXTRA picks.

Those teams have far better young players/prospects than Vancouver. THAT should be the goal.

Which EXTRA picks have provided these teams with the "far better young players" of which you speak?

[Blob Mckenzie]

Sigh, they've made deals trading veterans for picks/prospects over the last three deadlines in terms of the Coyotes and in 2015 and 2016 for the leaves. Carolina has done much the same thing. These teams have far deeper and better pools of young players and prospects than Vancouver.

Not sure why a fan of a team wouldn't want more high end young talent on the team he cheers for.

[Strangelove]

.

Total draft picks made in the last four NHL drafts:

Vancouver: 27 (including 6 first round picks)
Arizona: 29 (including 6 first round picks)
Carolina: 29 (including 5 first round picks)
Toronto: 31 (including 4 first round picks)

I think your Canucks have signed more young college/junior players to close any perceived gap.

These teams have far deeper and better pools of young players and prospects than Vancouver.

Wrong.

Not sure why a fan of a team wouldn't want more high end young talent on the team he cheers for.

Who said that?

[Blob Mckenzie]

Lol at anyone who thinks the Canucks don't have a worse young player/prospect pool than the aforementioned teams. Troll has been exposed. Homer fan is one thing but you guys take the fucking cake. Enjoy your circle jerk.

[Strangelove]

Lol at anyone who thinks the Canucks don't have a worse young player/prospect pool than the aforementioned teams. Troll has been exposed. Homer fan is one thing but you guys take the fucking cake. Enjoy your circle jerk.

You're the troll.

Which EXTRA picks have provided these teams with the "far better young players" of which you speak?

[Blob Mckenzie]

Yeah ok actually looking at things objectively makes me a troll. You on the other hand are incapable of ever criticizing a single move this management team makes. There's zero middle ground.