The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

[Meds]

I am just poking a stick in all this...watching the dude vs blob is the best part of this whold season I'd say.

No shit. LOL!

[SKYO]

One of my theories is that Benning may have failed to correctly assess the state of the franchise when he took over, and his actions at the time reflect that faulty assessment. If that's true, it's on him, and him alone. I think a more likely variation on this theme is that, if a faulty assessment of the state of the team governed his moves in his first year, the faulty assessment was a collective failure by the ownership/management group.

Relating to the problem distinguishing the theories above, since we are trying to assess the quality of the work that Benning is doing, I'd also be interested in any ideas from posters on this board in how to tease out which decisions are Benning's, and which derive from elsewhere in the ownership management group.

I think at first when Benning started he came in guns blazing, no attachment to any players at all and in all likelihood was hired to bring the franchise back from the dead!

And to that effect he did, he got the team back into the playoffs, however enter the Flames and Ferland whom destroyed our pathetic defense, just one simple minded hitter got under the skin of an entire defense corpse.
of course we got outplayed overall, anyways it really opened the management's eyes on all the teams weaknesses.

2015: slow transition to fix said pathetic defense, lots of injuries to all key players.

2016/17: got all the new defense guys in, but it's really young, stuck with a lot of veterans with NTCs still.

Team through analytics is getting outplayed, although at times this team has some jam and competitiveness, it's pretty fragile, but with our good goaltending, the Sedins steadiness, Horvat's progression and Sutter healthy we are not tanking hard like the Avs or the Coyotes, but the staleness and lack of game breakers and relying on 36 year old slower skaters to be the main cogs on the offense is detrimental overall to be a contender.


So I think in hindsight, Benning should have let the owners know he's going to assess the team and make changes, instead of swift changes and UFA signings to get the team better asap.

Now we are stuck in limbo on a decent but old boat with a lot of holes, some salvageable pieces, but the boat is still on lease (the lease being the Sedins), so we are stuck till lease is over.(Sedins contract expire, they retire or request a trade).

It's like if the Blackhawks had the same team just 8 years older kane/toews, like how would they be playing at 37 years of age?

Anyways if you want the boat to go on one more good cruise, and not just tear it down, it needs to be reinforced pretty good, with a new engine, that would be a power forward LW for some size and grit and scoring for 5on5 and powerplay, and a game breaker.

To make Sedins successful, they need less ice time and then the team will need more scoring proficiency on other lines with a lot more size and skill overall to make up for the lack of superstars, be nice if we had a game breaker on defense as well, like a OEL or someone who can be a threat everytime they touch the puck, you see the havoc they can cause like Burns in SJ.

Plus a new experienced captain to guide the boat through the rough seas of the NHL ocean full of the east coast turbulence. To me that can be accomplished by hiring Julien.

[Mickey107]

No matter how much and how successful this team is in building for the future, there is still a glaring hole in the 24 to 28 year old age group, particularly, up front. Moving forward, that will have to be addressed. Might not seem important but I think it is.

[Mr.Miyagi]

I think at first when Benning started he came in guns blazing, no attachment to any players at all and in all likelihood was hired to bring the franchise back from the dead!

And to that effect he did, he got the team back into the playoffs, however enter the Flames and Ferland whom destroyed our pathetic defense, just one simple minded hitter got under the skin of an entire defense corpse.
of course we got outplayed overall, anyways it really opened the management's eyes on all the teams weaknesses.

2015: slow transition to fix said pathetic defense, lots of injuries to all key players.

2016/17: got all the new defense guys in, but it's really young, stuck with a lot of veterans with NTCs still.

Team through analytics is getting outplayed, although at times this team has some jam and competitiveness, it's pretty fragile, but with our good goaltending, the Sedins steadiness, Horvat's progression and Sutter healthy we are not tanking hard like the Avs or the Coyotes, but the staleness and lack of game breakers and relying on 36 year old slower skaters to be the main cogs on the offense is detrimental overall to be a contender.


So I think in hindsight, Benning should have let the owners know he's going to assess the team and make changes, instead of swift changes and UFA signings to get the team better asap.

Now we are stuck in limbo on a decent but old boat with a lot of holes, some salvageable pieces, but the boat is still on lease (the lease being the Sedins), so we are stuck till lease is over.(Sedins contract expire, they retire or request a trade).

It's like if the Blackhawks had the same team just 8 years older kane/toews, like how would they be playing at 37 years of age?

Anyways if you want the boat to go on one more good cruise, and not just tear it down, it needs to be reinforced pretty good, with a new engine, that would be a power forward LW for some size and grit and scoring for 5on5 and powerplay, and a game breaker.

To make Sedins successful, they need less ice time and then the team will need more scoring proficiency on other lines with a lot more size and skill overall to make up for the lack of superstars, be nice if we had a game breaker on defense as well, like a OEL or someone who can be a threat everytime they touch the puck, you see the havoc they can cause like Burns in SJ.

Plus a new experienced captain to guide the boat through the rough seas of the NHL ocean full of the east coast turbulence. To me that can be accomplished by hiring Julien.

SKYO, this post is perfect. It's funny, thoughtful, and nails it on the head for the most part.

[ESQ]

I think Gillis's greatest asset that got those president's trophies was the explosion of the Sedins, which was the reaping of what Brian Burke sowed back in 1999 - it just took a decade for the peak.

Ironically, its the Sedins that have undone Benning's rebuild on the fly.

There was a pretty broad perception (that persists) that the Sedins are legit first-liners. To be a legit first-liner, I think you have to be producing 60+ points. Last season, 60+ points would have put you in the top 2/3rds of the league. When the Canucks last made the playoffs, the Sedins had 70+ point seasons. In the famous FIRE GILLIS season, Daniel had 47 points and Hank had 50 pts.

This season Daniel is on pace for 18 goals and 46 points, Hank is on pace for 16 goals and 52 points. By comparison, in Naslund's final year as a Canuck he still got 25 goals and 55 points.

Its clear that as the Sedins go, so goes the team. That was to Gillis' tremendous benefit, and has been to Benning's dismay. With 60-70 point seasons from the Sedins, the team likely makes the playoffs this season and last. If Benning made an error is assessing the team, it was in failing to predict the Sedins' drop-off.

[Blob Mckenzie]

No doubt about it the twins are now 2nd line players.For the first time in their career they are overpaid. Gotta walk away in 2018 and resist any temptation to bring them back. Great players, great people but it's getting close to turning the page.

[Zedlee]

After all Gillis and Gilman built a solid contender and brought the team within a few saves of the cup. We hold high regard for captain video and Pat Quinn...i think Mike should be recognized for building a pretty solid team...dont you dude?
Oh and dont try lavishing praise on the cheeseburgler for it...when Nonuts was dumped the team was floundering about in a funk...he was just lucky enough to inherit a couple of emerging twins and some quality vets

I take issue with this.
Gillis "built" nothing. It is a fact that Gillis inherited a great core (Sedins, Luongo, Kesler, Burrows were all here and in their prime). He made a few tweak moves to add to the core but did very little for the long term health of the franchise. Drafting was horrible and although some contracts were good (Burrows), a few were disasters. The 12 year contract to Luongo and the 4 year deal for the Sedins...terrible deals. Just wait until the cap recapture penalty on the Lu contract hits us...we are fucked. His handling of the Lu/Schneider situation was atrocious. He let Mitchell go for nothing and he ended up being a key contributor on two Stanley Cup winning teams. Instead we got Ballard...what a disaster. That god the Gillis era is over. We'll see how the Benning Linden era works out, but I'm a lot happier with those two in charge.

[Cousin Strawberry]

Every single GM has assets in place from former regimes. Theres no denying he fostered an "all in" environment that was one of the top 3 teams in the league for 3 or 4 years.
The Luongo contract was brilliant...so brilliant in fact that the league had to fuck this franchise just to move the goal posts and outlaw cap circumvention style contracts.
The Sedin 4 year contracts i cant comment on but along with Gilman, Gillis was able to fiddle all sorts of cap rules and dressed a pretty deep roster over those years.
I just want to know when hes going to get some recognition around here That was the last canuks team we could actually cheer for ffs. When do we hang his eye bags from the rafters?

[Mickey107]

Gillis was better at trading and making mid season acquisitions. Not intuitive on drafting and developing them.
Benning is better at drafting within the "traditional" routes, AND, outside it. So far, free agent signings, could be questioned.

Strong points and weak points can be argued forever. It truly is like a two person job!
Right now, Benning is in Europe, scouting. Then he'll be checking out US college. Then the TD. Then talking to his own players, and finally, the draft. Sorry, I meant both drafts.

He likes to do much of his own scouting and that's great, just saying he has a lot on his plate.

Trevor can't really help much cause he's the Pres. He has to work with the owners, figuring out how much beers in plastic cups should cost.

[Chef Boi RD]

Gillis was better at trading.

better at trading?

- 2nd and a 3rd for Bernier?
- Bernier, 1st pick and Grabner for Buyout Ballard?
- Hodgson for a Coke head drunk AHL'er?
- a couple 1 year contracts for $4.5 million long term contract in Buyout Booth?
- the Luongo fiasco?
- two 4ths for a month of the shut down king - Pahlsson
- A 2nd round pick, Connauton for a month of Derek Roy


The list goes on. Better at trading? Please

Are you talking about the amazing Higgins, Lapierre, Alberts acquisitions for 2nd and 3rd round picks. Wow!

The only trades he can brag about are Scneider for a 9th overall, But fuck if he couldn't get a 9th overall pick for Nonis beaut in Schneider he'd have to be shot. The Erhoff one. But thanks to his amazing trading for Buyout Ballard he had to let Erhoff walk.

[Mickey107]

Gillis was better at trading.

better at trading?

- 2nd and a 3rd for Bernier?
- Bernier, 1st pick and Grabner for Buyout Ballard?
- Hodgson for a Coke head drunk AHL'er?
- a couple 1 year contracts for $4.5 million long term contract in Buyout Booth?
- the Luongo fiasco?
- two 4ths for a month of the shut down king - Pahlsson
- A 2nd round pick, Connauton for a month of Derek Roy


The list goes on. Better at trading? Please

Are you talking about the amazing Higgins, Lapierre, Alberts acquisitions for 2nd and 3rd round picks. Wow!

The only trades he can brag about are Scneider for a 9th overall, But fuck if he couldn't get a 9th overall pick for Nonis beaut in Schneider he'd have to be shot. The Erhoff one. But thanks to his amazing trading for Buyout Ballard he had to let Erhoff walk.

Settle down, old boy;
Luongo
Erhoff
Hamhuis
Samuelson
Malholta
Torres
Higgins
Lapier
Ballard: was ok when he first got here.
Even Rome & Alberts.

Ballard wasn't a big factor but the others were "part", of what was one period away from a cup.

I'm not taking sides on any arguments, that wasn't what my post was about.
The two GMs are not comparable because of the time frame of where the team is, (was). Sedin's age, etc.

If, pure drafting is the most important thing, I'm better with Benning. Over all: For me? It's still too soon to pass a final judgement.

Forgive all the spelling errors. Too lazy to look things up. Too early to.

[Chef Boi RD]

Luongo? Nonis acquired Luongo. The goof decided to trade the 30 something goalie, past his prime, with the leagues worst contract long after he should've. Terrible asset mgmt for a premiere goalie

[Chef Boi RD]

Gillis was better at trading.

better at trading?

- 2nd and a 3rd for Bernier?
- Bernier, 1st pick and Grabner for Buyout Ballard?
- Hodgson for a Coke head drunk AHL'er?
- a couple 1 year contracts for $4.5 million long term contract in Buyout Booth?
- the Luongo fiasco?
- two 4ths for a month of the shut down king - Pahlsson
- A 2nd round pick, Connauton for a month of Derek Roy


The list goes on. Better at trading? Please

Are you talking about the amazing Higgins, Lapierre, Alberts acquisitions for 2nd and 3rd round picks. Wow!

The only trades he can brag about are Scneider for a 9th overall, But fuck if he couldn't get a 9th overall pick for Nonis beaut in Schneider he'd have to be shot. The Erhoff one. But thanks to his amazing trading for Buyout Ballard he had to let Erhoff walk.

Settle down, old boy;
Luongo
Erhoff
Hamhuis
Samuelson
Malholta
Torres
Higgins
Lapier
Ballard: was ok when he first got here.
Even Rome & Alberts.

Ballard wasn't a big factor but the others were "part", of what was one period away from a cup.

I'm not taking sides on any arguments, that wasn't what my post was about.
The two GMs are not comparable because of the time frame of where the team is, (was). Sedin's age, etc.

If, pure drafting is the most important thing, I'm better with Benning. Over all: For me? It's still too soon to pass a final judgement.

Forgive all the spelling errors. Too lazy to look things up. Too early to.

Hamhuis, Rome, Malhotra, Samuelsson and Torres were UFA signings. Are we talking trades or signings? If you want my opnion on these signings I only give nod to the Hamhius signing, the rest? Whoopdie-doooooooo. Regarding the Higgins, Lapierre and Rome trades, using our 2nd and 3rd round picks, in the words of Bubbles Macuzzi and IslandFarms, those reclamation, tweener, journeyman type players can be had for free on the UFA market, they are just meh trades, neither great or bad, fillers for the time being I guess.

What about all those millions givin to Sundin? For what? Zilcho DaMilcho!

What I liked about the Gillis Legacy

- Tanev signing
- Hamhius signing
- Shinkaruk did get us Granlund, so OK I guess
- We get Brisebios for his Lack signing
- Turning Nonis prized 1st round pick - Schneider into Horvat
- Although, he should have tried to trade Luongo long before he did, he did manage to get at least something - Markstrom
- The Erhoff contract dump by San Jose, but the presence of Buyout made that all impossible to re-sign him
- Hutton

That's about it.

[Mickey107]

Just talking about acquiring!
Luongo kind of had to be re-acquired for mega bucks or he was out the door.
Call it creativity or stupidity, I've heard it both ways by many.

[Chef Boi RD]

Just talking about acquiring!
Luongo kind of had to be re-acquired for mega bucks or he was out the door.
Call it creativity or stupidity, I've heard it both ways by many.

Luongo - "My Contract Sucks" after Gillis failed to trade him at the Trade Deadline