2015 Canucks RFA's

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herb
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by herb »

Reefer2 wrote:Forwards and D are 2 different positions,
Really? Wow. Thanks for that.

Ryan Ellis made it in the NHL. You want to know why? Because he's a good hockey player.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by Island Nucklehead »

herb wrote:
Reefer2 wrote:Forwards and D are 2 different positions,
Really? Wow. Thanks for that.

Ryan Ellis made it in the NHL. You want to know why? Because he's a good hockey player.

A guy like Ellis is also one of the best offensive dmen to come out of junior in recent seasons, and his defensive capabilities still aren't great at the NHL level. He was a PPG in his 16 year old season, put up 89 points in his draft year, and had a 101 point season his last year of junior. Jordan Subban, who just turned 20, has never been a PPG player in junior. He's quite simply not even close to the same calibre of offensive d-man Ellis is. The fact that Ellis is still more of a specialty player in the NHL, despite his impressive offensive skills, certainly indicates Subban has a long, long way to go to even getting a sniff at the NHL.

He, as well as guys like Gadreau and Johnson, are still a rarity in the NHL. You need world-class talent to succeed at that size, and I don't think Subban is a world-class talent.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by 2Fingers »

herb wrote:
Reefer2 wrote:Forwards and D are 2 different positions,
Really? Wow. Thanks for that.

Ryan Ellis made it in the NHL. You want to know why? Because he's a good hockey player.
When you make a quote that a size of a player currently in the playoffs and then try to make it sound like size does not matter so what did you expect people to say?

Size does matter and it matters more for a D man to be successful or to even have a chance to be successful. All the talent in the world will not work when you have a 6'4" guy weighing 240 lbs sitting in front of your goalie and you are 5'9" and need to clear the crease. I know it is not all about size and positioning works well but I will state again Subban chance of becoming a regular in the NHL on D is low. Hell the chance of anyone drafted in the 4th round is low. Of course if he was 6" taller and had the same season he would of be a higher selection.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by herb »

Island Nucklehead wrote:He, as well as guys like Gadreau and Johnson, are still a rarity in the NHL. You need world-class talent to succeed at that size, and I don't think Subban is a world-class talent.
Nope, he's probably not.

But, he has been one of the best defenseman in the OHL over the past several years. He's worth a shot.

Gaudreau was drafted in the 4th round. Johnson wasn't even drafted. Lots of armchair and real GMs thought these guys never had a chance.
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herb
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by herb »

Reefer2 wrote:When you make a quote that a size of a player currently in the playoffs and then try to make it sound like size does not matter so what did you expect people to say?

Size does matter and it matters more for a D man to be successful or to even have a chance to be successful. All the talent in the world will not work when you have a 6'4" guy weighing 240 lbs sitting in front of your goalie and you are 5'9" and need to clear the crease. I know it is not all about size and positioning works well but I will state again Subban chance of becoming a regular in the NHL on D is low. Hell the chance of anyone drafted in the 4th round is low. Of course if he was 6" taller and had the same season he would of be a higher selection.
Of course Subban’s chance of making it is low, but if he doesn’t make it, the deciding factor won’t be his size.

Size matters a hell of a lot less now than it used to in the dead puck days. Skating, puck moving ability, vision, anticipation, work ethic and intelligence are much more important than a player’s dimensions.

You and others are overvaluing being a “crease clearer” IMO. I want players who have puck skills, a great shot, have a high compete level and aren’t absolutely dominated from a possession point of view like some of our defensemen were this season. In my estimation, those are far more important attributes than being able to “clear the crease”.

There are plenty of examples of “undersized” players making it in 2015. Tyson Barrie, Krug, Spurgeon, Vatanen, Enstrom, Boyle, Kimmo Timonen…

Hell, Chris Tanev is our lightest and best defenseman. Size and effectiveness do not run parallel.

As has been noted elsewhere, the Lighting and Blackhawks are two of the lighter teams in the playoffs.

Anyway, we’re talking way too much about a B level prospect. Subban is an intriguing prospect, but it’s also funny how controversial he is.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by Strangelove »

Jordan Subban has tremendous lower body strength, hopes to be close to 200lbs this fall.

Drafted at 170lbs, 185lbs now... kids trains hard.

A bowling ball with tremendous skills.

I'm dreaming that he makes the NHL with one of those 2 giant Russian assholes as his partner.

But hey, that's a coupla years away even in my wildest dreams....

(yes, my wildest dreams include assholes and bowling balls)
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Try to focus on someday.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

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Oh boy, he can bunk with Steamer.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by Ronning's Ghost »

It is worth remembering that height is only one aspect of overall body size, and from a crease-clearing perspective, probably the less important one. Recall that Horvat, while "only" six feet, is considered a noticeably big and strong kid.

Other things being equal, a 5'9", 185 lb. Jordan Subban (or any other fit person that height and weight) should expect to be stronger than a 6'2" Chris Tanev (or any other fit person that height and weight).

Of course reach is also useful, but it might be reasonably expected from someone as athletic as Subban that increased quickness and acceleration will compensate. Perhaps they will even provide a net advantage.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by Island Nucklehead »

All good points Ghost, but the problem I see is Subban facing off against a Getzlaf or a Kesler down low. Tanev has trouble dealing with bigger forwards along the wall, but usually uses his stick and smarts so contact isn't necessarily a problem and he can make his play before the big dudes are leaning on him. If Subban has to get up close and personal with bigger guys (due to reach/size) then I don't like his chances of outbattling the bigger forwards, even if he is physically stronger than Tanev.

Again, real low-risk contract for the Canucks. If it works out, even if he turns into MA Bergeron for a couple seasons, it's still a win for the organization.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by vic »

Island Nucklehead wrote:All good points Ghost, but the problem I see is Subban facing off against a Getzlaf or a Kesler down low. Tanev has trouble dealing with bigger forwards along the wall, but usually uses his stick and smarts so contact isn't necessarily a problem and he can make his play before the big dudes are leaning on him. If Subban has to get up close and personal with bigger guys (due to reach/size) then I don't like his chances of outbattling the bigger forwards, even if he is physically stronger than Tanev.

Again, real low-risk contract for the Canucks. If it works out, even if he turns into MA Bergeron for a couple seasons, it's still a win for the organization.
Kid just got signed and he's already pegged as a top pairing defenceman.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by Island Nucklehead »

vic wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:All good points Ghost, but the problem I see is Subban facing off against a Getzlaf or a Kesler down low. Tanev has trouble dealing with bigger forwards along the wall, but usually uses his stick and smarts so contact isn't necessarily a problem and he can make his play before the big dudes are leaning on him. If Subban has to get up close and personal with bigger guys (due to reach/size) then I don't like his chances of outbattling the bigger forwards, even if he is physically stronger than Tanev.

Again, real low-risk contract for the Canucks. If it works out, even if he turns into MA Bergeron for a couple seasons, it's still a win for the organization.
Kid just got signed and he's already pegged as a top pairing defenceman.
lol far from it, but we do play half the games without the ability to dictate match ups, and it's not like those guys are the only big players in the league. So Subban will need to be able to deal with bigger forwards, just a fact of life for an NHL defenceman.
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Re: 2015 Canucks RFA's

Post by Topper »

A strong aggressive forecheck is already Vancouver's Achilles heel. Recall what The Canucks did to Brian Campbell.
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