Canucks 2nd line

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SKYO
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Canucks 2nd line

Post by SKYO »

IslandNucklehead made a good point..
Island Nucklehead wrote:
SKYO wrote: Burrows-Bonino-Higgins the veteran 2nd line
The biggest reason I don't think the Canucks will make the playoffs this season is that "2nd line". You look at some of the Western teams' second lines:

Chicago has Hossa-Richards-Saad
Colorado has Landeskog-MacKinnon-Tanguay
Dallas has Cole-Spezza-Hemsky
LA has Williams-Richards-Carter
SJ has Hertl-Couture-Nieto
St Louis has Swartz-Backes-Teresenko

Burrows-Bonino-Higgins would be a 3rd line on several of these teams. I just don't see where the goals will come from on a consistent basis this season. Our top-6 is actually quite weak in a stacked Western conference.
This lack of secondary scoring has plagued this team it seems like forever, along with never having a Norris trophy type dman.

We've had some great 1st lines, but when we do we've never had that elusive scoring 2nd line wave of attack, Ryan Kesler in his prime was great in that regard, which helped with that 2011 run, but he never had a winger that he gelled with after that.

Higgins - Bonino - Burrows will be an adequate 2nd line, but not dominant, part of why I was hoping Jensen or Shinkaruk would make the team as at least they have the potential to be some great scorers shortly.

*silver lining*
If nothing can be done and we roll with these lines, at least what we lack in uber snipers on the 2nd line, we make up with quality 3rd and 4th lines (secondary scoring by committee), along with a decent top 4 D and great goaltending.

mid-season at least we should see Shinkaruk/Jensen at times, and next season we'll have them and Virtanen on the squad!

I can see the allure of having evander kane on our 2nd line now ha.
Can the Canucks just win a Cup within the next 5 years.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by Strangelove »

SKYO wrote: IslandNucklehead made a good point..
Topper made a similar point this morning:
Topper wrote:The top line will be in tough unless a second line emerges to take some of the opposition checking away from them. The Twins will still be vulnerable to big physical checking defenders who have the reach and strength to break the cycle short passing game.
And as the widow stated a few days ago:
Hockey Widow wrote: if this team has Higgins in the top six we are in trouble.
Yeah I think we all realize our 2nd line is our weak link.

Same as this time last year, we're left needing a young winger or two to emerge as legit 2nd-liners at some point.

(Kassian? Vey? Jensen? Shink?)
SKYO wrote: I can see the allure of having evander kane on our 2nd line now ha
:wink:
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by donlever »

Strangelove wrote:
SKYO wrote: Yeah I think we all realize our 2nd line is our weak link.
Throw D depth in there as well for shits and giggles.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by SKYO »

Strangelove wrote: Topper made a similar point this morning:
Topper wrote:The top line will be in tough unless a second line emerges to take some of the opposition checking away from them. The Twins will still be vulnerable to big physical checking defenders who have the reach and strength to break the cycle short passing game.
And as the widow stated a few days ago:
Hockey Widow wrote: if this team has Higgins in the top six we are in trouble.
Yeah I think we all realize our 2nd line is our weak link.
It is exactly whey I called this Canucks 2nd line summit!
Strangelove wrote:Same as this time last year, we're left needing a young winger or two to emerge as legit 2nd-liners at some point.

(Kassian? Vey? Jensen? Shink?)
SKYO wrote: I can see the allure of having evander kane on our 2nd line now ha
:wink:
I think it will eventually be Shinkaruk and/or Virtanen, but I get a feeling that the short-of-patience Benning
@imacVanSun #Canucks GM Benning: “I’m not a patient person. We expect to win because we hate losing. I can’t watch losing hockey. I can’t."
will make a trade this season if our 2nd line can't get going, but they will get some slack as JB said he will let this squad have some time to gel, work out their kinks, shake off the rust or something of that nature.
Can the Canucks just win a Cup within the next 5 years.
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Island Nucklehead
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by Island Nucklehead »

Strangelove wrote: Yeah I think we all realize our 2nd line is our weak link.

Same as this time last year, we're left needing a young winger or two to emerge as legit 2nd-liners at some point.
Yes, and by no means do I think my comment was the first to point out our weakness up front. Just an observation when looking at our forward lineup going into this season. It's just not deep enough to seriously compete. Lever makes a great point about or "D". If the forwards aren't deep enough, and the defence isnt deep enough... yikes.

This isn't a new problem. This has been festering for years, and it's only going to get worse as the Canucks age. Burrows is being paid for his production with the Sedins. He MIGHT be a 20-goal guy without them. He could also be a 35 point kinda guy. Contrast him with a Marian Hossa or a Jeff Carter and you get just how desperate we are for secondary offence. In an ideal world, Burrows would've been a 30 goal guy with the Sedins, and have the ability to score 25 without them. That's not the case. He's a far weaker player. Closer to Trent Klatt than Patrick Sharp.

One thing I was somewhat hoping for was for Vrbata to play with Bonino on the second line. Obviously in order to get him here we had to promise him time with the Sedins. But if Burrows is a 30-goal guy WITH the Sedins, and a 15 goal guy without them, and Vrbata is a 30 goal guy with them, and a 25 goal guy without them, then having Vrbata on the second line is a +10 goal difference. Not to mention the nightmares it creates for the opposition.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by donlever »

...and Vrbata can play "with" the Sedins on the PP which may serve to bump him up to the 30 range regardless.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by mathonwy »

Hmmm.

This thread is 3 years late. Better late than never I guess!
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by Strangelove »

donlever wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
SKYO wrote: Yeah I think we all realize our 2nd line is our weak link.
Throw D depth in there as well for shits and giggles.
Yup.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by SKYO »

Island Nucklehead wrote:Burrows is being paid for his production with the Sedins. He MIGHT be a 20-goal guy without them. He could also be a 35 point kinda guy. Contrast him with a Marian Hossa or a Jeff Carter and you get just how desperate we are for secondary offence. In an ideal world, Burrows would've been a 30 goal guy with the Sedins, and have the ability to score 25 without them. That's not the case. He's a far weaker player. Closer to Trent Klatt than Patrick Sharp.

One thing I was somewhat hoping for was for Vrbata to play with Bonino on the second line.
donlever wrote:...and Vrbata can play "with" the Sedins on the PP which may serve to bump him up to the 30 range regardless.
I think the Sedins are relishing in the fact that they finally got a player who has a good shot and good cycling/passing ability in Vrbata, we need the Sedins to score once again! When they are rolling this team is vastly improved, so I prefer Vrbata to stick with them.

iirc bonino played wing for Getz/Perry as well, so JB could package up a trade to get a 2nd LW or a center.

During the season if our 2nd line can't get going for whatever reason I'd see if we could package up Burrows+prospect+pick for a good scorer.

Every year there is always a trade to be made, it's just being prepared when an opportunity arises for JB in this 2014/15 season.
Can the Canucks just win a Cup within the next 5 years.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by Strangelove »

Island Nucklehead wrote: Lever makes a great point about or "D". If the forwards aren't deep enough, and the defence isnt deep enough... yikes.
Let me put it this way: IF Kassian and Vey emerge as 2nd-liners, we have tons of depth at forward. :thumbs:

HMMM perhaps I should have made that "IF" bigger? :eh:

FWIW I'm on the Sedins + Vrbata + Fingers Crossed train... for now.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by herb »

Where's the news?

Our second line stunk last year too, even with the Demigod Ryan Kesler.

I don't think there is a person in Canuckland delusional enough to think our second line is as good as those eight or nine teams in the west that are being ranked ahead of us by the preseason prognosticators.

Our current situation illustrates perfectly why management is so content to give a guy like Vey a shot.

Unfortunately it's just not all that easy to pick up a Couture, Mackinnon, Hossa, Carter or Spezza.

The only real hope I have is that we have a number of guys in our middle six group of forwards (Bonino, Burrows, Kassian, Higgins and Hansen) who we know are capable of putting up 15-20 goals each. If they all manage to do so, that's a pretty good chunk of offense.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by ESQ »

I think the difference between a great 2nd line and an okay second line is a great second line gets 45-65 points per player, and an okay second line gets 40-50 points. I think Chicago, Dallas, and San Jose will have great 2nd lines for sure, and Colorado, LA and STL will have okay 2nd lines.

In 2011, the second line of Raymond-Kesler-Samuelsson/Burrows basically were 45 points/73 pts / 50 points (when pro-rated for 82 games). Kesler as we know scored a ton on the top PP.

Last season, the Canucks' second line was literally non-existent - Kesler got 43 pts, but Booth and Burrows were 30-point players. Had Santorelli not gotten hurt, he would have been 40ish points, which would be decent 2nd liner production.

What I think people forget from 2010-11 is how great the 3rd line was. Hansen-Higgins/Malhotra/Torres put up huge numbers for the roles and ice time. What I remember from that season is the Sedins would go on a hot streak, then cool off when the Kesler line would heat up. But there were at least 5 or so games where the top 2 lines were quiet and the 3rd line stepped up to win those games (they combined for 8 GWGs).

Unfortunately, I don't see the Canucks 2nd line producing 45-65 points. I do expect more production from the Sedin line, 40-50 from the 2nd liners, and 30ish points from the third line. I think Burrows-Bonino-Higgins/Vey/Kassian will be in the "okay" range.

But, if Burrows remains a 30-point player... :drink:
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by Strangelove »

SKYO wrote: *silver lining*
If nothing can be done and we roll with these lines, at least what we lack in uber snipers on the 2nd line, we make up with quality 3rd and 4th lines (secondary scoring by committee), along with a decent top 4 D and great goaltending.
Yeah rolling 4 lines is gonna be a blast. :thumbs:
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by mathonwy »

herb wrote: Unfortunately it's just not all that easy to pick up a Couture, Mackinnon,
You develop a Couture/Mackinnon, you don't pick one up.
herb wrote: Hossa, Carter or Spezza
And Gillis couldn't trade his way out of a paper bag. I'm hoping Jim is a little better in this department
herb wrote: The only real hope I have is that we have a number of guys in our middle six group of forwards (Bonino, Burrows, Kassian, Higgins and Hansen) who we know are capable of putting up 15-20 goals each. If they all manage to do so, that's a pretty good chunk of offense.
Agree. The only way we're going to experience any type of success this season is scoring by committee as we don't have enough developed talent to rely on the traditional 2 scoring / 1 checking / 1 energy line up. As well, there's going to be enormous pressure on the vets to find their game methinks.

And I am absolutely against using the Sedins for any type of plumber work (shot blocking, PK). The Sedins (and V), have to last us at least a couple more seasons.
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Re: Canucks 2nd line

Post by Madcombinepilot »

SKYO wrote:IslandNucklehead made a good point..
Island Nucklehead wrote:
SKYO wrote: Burrows-Bonino-Higgins the veteran 2nd line
The biggest reason I don't think the Canucks will make the playoffs this season is that "2nd line". You look at some of the Western teams' second lines:

Chicago has Hossa-Richards-Saad
Colorado has Landeskog-MacKinnon-Tanguay
Dallas has Cole-Spezza-Hemsky
LA has Williams-Richards-Carter
SJ has Hertl-Couture-Nieto
St Louis has Swartz-Backes-Teresenko

Burrows-Bonino-Higgins would be a 3rd line on several of these teams. I just don't see where the goals will come from on a consistent basis this season. Our top-6 is actually quite weak in a stacked Western conference.
This lack of secondary scoring has plagued this team it seems like forever, along with never having a Norris trophy type dman.

We've had some great 1st lines, but when we do we've never had that elusive scoring 2nd line wave of attack, Ryan Kesler in his prime was great in that regard, which helped with that 2011 run, but he never had a winger that he gelled with after that.

Higgins - Bonino - Burrows will be an adequate 2nd line, but not dominant, part of why I was hoping Jensen or Shinkaruk would make the team as at least they have the potential to be some great scorers shortly.

*silver lining*
If nothing can be done and we roll with these lines, at least what we lack in uber snipers on the 2nd line, we make up with quality 3rd and 4th lines (secondary scoring by committee), along with a decent top 4 D and great goaltending.

mid-season at least we should see Shinkaruk/Jensen at times, and next season we'll have them and Virtanen on the squad!

I can see the allure of having evander kane on our 2nd line now ha.
Well, in this example, doesn't that mean we have the 7th best 2nd line in the west?!?

Top 8 teams make the playoffs (I think?)

<ends sarcasm>

A weak second line is not the end of the world. Weak secondary scoring is the end. We have a 1st and 3 third lines on this team.. Yes, we could use another top 6 forward, but there is really none available at this moment (for a fair price) so we have to make up for the lack with depth (which we have) and solid defence/goaltending (which we have).

I Like our chances to make the playoffs this year, Right now, but as always, it depends on major injuries to key players.

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