Seattle Getting Closer?

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Island Nucklehead
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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Island Nucklehead » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:54 pm

mr perfect wrote:Kowch: The shopping mall is a retail outlet in a suburb. How many corporate/high end jobs does this supply? Aren't outlet malls generally only busy on weekends when people aren't working?

It's nice that some high end neighbourhoods are close by. What's their population base? Can they alone support an NHL team? Sounds similar to being located in Lions Bay or West Vancouver. In a large metro area how long would it take for some one from South Beach on a Tuesday night to get to a Panthers game?

Yes, the Panthers not winning is part of the reason they have poor attendance but putting a team in a non traditional market is risky at best and due diligence is needed to ensure the product takes root.
Image


That's DURING the game. Pretty sad. There was a time when the Panthers averaged nearly 18,500 fans per game, incidentally in their first season in Sunrise. They've only averaged four seasons of 16,000+ since (and that includes recent seasons of free-ticket giveaways).

Just looking at that picture takes me back to being a kid watching the Victoria Shamrocks at the old Memorial, scanning from the upper deck looking for empty seats a couple rows from the glass. Couldn't imagine being able to do that at a Canucks game these days...

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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Strangelove » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:52 pm

mr perfect wrote:
Topper wrote:Folks who may attend a Panther's game do not take public transit.

Once again, southern expansion was pre Gary Bettman.
Yet people in other hockey markets do take public (rapid) transit. Might there be a problem with Joe and Jane Average checking out an NHL game in FLA?

Bettman was not in on the Tampa/Ottawa expansion but he definitely in on the Anaheim/Florida expansions.
No, Bettman became comish on February 1, 1993

... which was after the Anaheim/Florida expansions had been approved by the league
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/02/sport ... -fall.html

March 2, 1993

The National Hockey League surged full speed ahead with its Sun Belt expansion yesterday as new franchises in Miami and suburban Los Angeles announced that they would begin play next season.

The announcements were made by Wayne Huizenga, chief executive of Blockbuster Video in Miami, and Michael Eisner, the chairman of the Walt Disney Company in Anaheim, Calif.

The teams will take the ice only 10 months after being accepted into the league for an entry fee of $50 million each.

A similar formula is used in the N.B.A., where Bettman was third in command until Feb. 1.
Good ole NY Times. :drink:

I can dig up further proof if you still are in doubt.

The league was definitely pushing expansion big time, long before they brought Bettman on board.
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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Topper » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:55 pm

MissPee - Have you ever spent time in South Florida and seen the transit system?

I always made sure I had a rental car.

and see Doc's post regarding expansion timing and the hiring of Bettman.
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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Kowch » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:56 pm

mr perfect wrote:Kowch: The shopping mall is a retail outlet in a suburb. How many corporate/high end jobs does this supply? Aren't outlet malls generally only busy on weekends when people aren't working?

It's nice that some high end neighbourhoods are close by. What's their population base? Can they alone support an NHL team?
My apologies if I wasn't clear. I was trying to show that it's not a poor placement for an Arena; it's easy to get to and closer to the areas that have people actually interested in AND playing hockey. Just for a reference here's the population base of the cities fairly close with easy access to the arena:

Sunrise: 90116 (2013)
Weston: 68388 (2013)
Pembroke Pines: 162,329 (2013)
Coral Springs: 126604 (2013) (Incidentally is where the Panthers practice facility is - 3 full sheets)
Ft Lauderdale: 172389 (2013)
Tamarac: 63155 (2013)
Plantation: 90268 (2013)
Hollywood: 146526 (2013)
Davie: 96830
Pompano Beach: 104410 (2013)
Miramar: 130288 (2013)

Total in the area (easy drive to arena): 1,251,303.

And I'm not even going to include Miami (and it's neighboring cities) or Palm Beach county at all. There's a bunch of people in Boca Raton and area that go to games.

Population of NHL city of Winnipeg: 633,450
Population of NHL city of Ottawa (well, really Kanata): 883,391

So I think it's safe to say it's not a lack of populace, nor easy of access to the arena. Moving on. Oh, and by the way, that mall is packed day and night all year round.
Sounds similar to being located in Lions Bay or West Vancouver. In a large metro area how long would it take for some one from South Beach on a Tuesday night to get to a Panthers game?
Here's the thing. The hockey demographic isn't going to come from Miami Beach. Or Miami for that matter. It's going to come from the cities I mentioned and from north of that area.

But for the record, it's nearly 40 miles from Miami beach to the arena, so about an hour or so depending on traffic and the route you take.
Your argument about Abbotsford is a non starter.


Again, I think you misunderstood me. I asked about the people who lived in Abbotsford/Aldergrove and want to get to a game at Rogers Arena. Ever try that? I know I have and it sucks ass.
Abbotsford is about 100,000 people and the Canucks aren't based there, which is not the equivalent of Glendale hosting the Coyotes and people from Phoenix/Scottsdale having to travel on a week night in rush hour traffic in a population twice the size of metro Vancouver. No, the equivalent would be the Canucks in Abbotsford and fans having to come from Vancouver, North Van, West Van, Burnaby out to Abby. The Canucks where they are now don't need Abbotsford to make it.
And the Panthers don't need Miami to make it. So what's your point?
You're trying to compare the NHL with 41 home games on varying nights of the week to the NFL with 8 home games primarily played on Sunday afternoons? With the tradition of people being at the parks most of the day with tailgate parties? Get real.
I am being real. And the tradition here with the Dolphins is just getting to the game and then trying to get out.

Question for you.... Have you ever been to Florida? Ever driven here? I've been to Dolphins games, and to Marlins games when they played at Dolphins Stadium. It's in the middle of nowhere and isn't as easy to get to as the BB&T center. Until recently (with Marlins Stadium), most of the arenas and stadiums in south Florida haven't been near any city center (save American Airlines arena), and transit basically doesn't exists here.
I still follow the Canucks while waiting for the day the Jacobses, the Sniders, the Wirtzes and other tight fisted owners who propped up Alan Eagleson and control the lying little commissioner to no longer own an NHL team and we can see Bettman's ass hit the door on the way out. I don't know what your definition of a fan is nor do I care.
It was a serious question. Personally I'm down with any hockey fan, even ones that are that dismissive.

Anyway, as I'm sure you realize, you won't be going to a game anytime soon. Trust me, I have no love for Bettman nor for what's happened the last few years, but I'm a realist. The people that own the teams love him because he's done exactly what they hired him to do.

It's funny that you mention the Wirtzes because Rocky Wirtz has done more good in the last few years than 'ol Dollar Bill ever did including allowing games to be televised in their own market again. Go ahead and read. I also have no love for Jeremy Jacobs or Snider.
In short, Bettman was hired to be the first commissioner of the NHL with his mandate being getting a hard salary cap and a national American TV deal. In order to appease broadcast companies, the NHL had to put teams in southern belt cities because that's where population growth is and TV views from there make or break ratings. Yes, the Panthers not winning is part of the reason they have poor attendance but putting a team in a non traditional market is risky at best and due diligence is needed to ensure the product takes root. It would have been nice for Bettman to have had as much scrutiny with past development owners in both Phoenix and Miami as he did with Jim Balsillie, don't you think? After all isn't that what NHL owners are paying him to do?
The Panthers not winning or even really competing is what's doing them in, not the fact they're here (Florida). The organization hasn't been run correctly, hasn't really tried to connect or build the fan base and hasn't put a quality product on the ice. It's hard to build a fan base when you suck, especially when the automatic hockey fans that are here are usually from somewhere else cheering for their home team.

I completely understand and agree that 7300 fans at a regular season game is appalling. However the part of this whole discussion that rankles me is the fact that people who a) have never been here and b) don't understand the demographics and c) don't know the history of how badly the franchise has been run down here are so quick to want to rip this franchise out of here without giving the new ownership group a chance to turn it around. I've been there (see: Vancouver Grizzlies, see: Atlanta Thrashers) and it fucking sucks.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nhl/f ... 75155.html

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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by mathonwy » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:09 pm

It's going to be tough times in Florida when you're paying Dave Bolland 5.5M till 2018/19.

Florida's top 3 paid players are Bolland (5.5), Fleischman (4.5) and Jussi Jokinen (4).

If you look at their roster, frankly speaking, I don't think they have a legitimate first line player on the team.

That's absolutely disgusting and frankly embarrassing to the league. Especially so considering how competitive the Lightning have become.

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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Kowch » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:16 pm

That's the difference between a decently run team (Lightning) and the Panthers under the old ownership group.

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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Meds » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:40 am

Jovocop wrote:
herb wrote:Big problems in Florida to start the season. Just over 11,000 fans for their home opener (on a Saturday no less) and barely over 7,000 in attendance for last night's game against Ottawa. 7,000! That's like WHL attendance territory.

https://twitter.com/GMillerTSN/status/5 ... 20/photo/1

There's no way they can survive like this.
Disgusting. The Panthers now have their No. 1 goalie back but still could not fill the rink. To be fair, it could happen to the Canucks if they had the results like the Panthers in the last decade. The Canucks missed the playoffs the first time in the last 6 years. All of a sudden, Aquilini and Linden had to give out free beers to get the fans back into the rink. Unfortunately, the only NHL team that can still do well financially without winning is the Leaves... :(
I would argue that the reason for the drop in sales in Vancouver has more to do with the fact that from 2012-2014, the Canucks went from being the best team in the NHL to a pathetically predictable team that couldn't match up with the big boys around the league. This in itself was not the dagger though, the dagger was a coaching and management staff that failed to recognize the obvious. Change was needed, and management wouldn't pull the trigger. When the coaching change "reset" had failed at the Olympic break, Gillis did nothing, and he lost his job for it. Fans are tired of paying to watch the same players make the same mistakes and get rewarded for it with bigger contracts.

Had the Canucks missed the playoffs but still been an exciting brand of hockey to watch, sales likely wouldn't have dropped like this.

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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Meds » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:55 am

Topper wrote:Folks who may attend a Panther's game do not take public transit.

Once again, southern expansion was pre Gary Bettman.
wiki wrote: On February 1, 1993, Bettman began his tenure as the first commissioner of the National Hockey League, replacing Gil Stein, who served as the NHL's final president.[14] The owners hired Bettman with the mandate of selling the game in the U.S. market, ending labor unrest, completing expansion plans, and modernizing the views of the "old guard" within the ownership ranks.
People often lump him in with the Panthers expansion because he became Commissioner in February of 1993, the Panthers inaugural season was 1993-94.

Regardless, his mandate was clear.

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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Meds » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:07 am

mr perfect wrote:
Topper wrote:Folks who may attend a Panther's game do not take public transit.

Once again, southern expansion was pre Gary Bettman.
Yet people in other hockey markets do take public (rapid) transit. Might there be a problem with Joe and Jane Average checking out an NHL game in FLA?

Bettman was not in on the Tampa/Ottawa expansion but he definitely in on the Anaheim/Florida expansions. And he was definitely in on the original Jets moving to Phoenix, as well as being in along with the BOG in the sale of the Panthers and Coyotes owners where the teams were part of or wholly of commercial development. This situation belongs squarely around his neck.
Betman joined the NBA in 1981 and was there for 12 years. That would take him to 1993. He became NHL Commissioner is 1993. He may have been in on the Florida/Anaheim expansions, but not to the extent that you are implying. Those expansion processes were already done deals when he took over, and they had been underway for years.

The current situation in Phoenix and Florida do belong to him, but not the fact that they actually have teams there. Only that they haven't moved.

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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Strangelove » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:07 pm

Meds wrote: Betman joined the NBA in 1981 and was there for 12 years. That would take him to 1993. He became NHL Commissioner is 1993. He may have been in on the Florida/Anaheim expansions, but not to the extent that you are implying. Those expansion processes were already done deals when he took over, and they had been underway for years.
Yes the Flo/Ana expansions were "done deals" under the previous commish and was the collective will of the GMs:
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/11/sport ... a-too.html

December 11, 1992 (2 months before Bettman became commish)

NHL Is Going to Disneyland, and South Florida, Too

The National Hockey League voted unanimously today to expand to Miami and Anaheim, Calif.

Huizenga and Eisner sat alongside Gil Stein, the NHL president, and Bruce McNall, the owner of the Los Angeles Kings and the chairman of the league's Board of Governors.

The addition of these teams continues a remarkable period of growth for the league, which contained 21 teams from 1979 through 1991. The San Jose Sharks began play last season, followed by the Ottawa Senators and Tampa Bay this season. Under a plan of expansion set up in December 1989, the N.H.L. hopes to add two more teams by the year 2000.
Fuckin NY Times! :thumbs:

That last sentence affirms Bettman's clear mandate, so yeah he shouldn't be blamed for expansion...
Meds wrote: The current situation in Phoenix and Florida do belong to him, but not the fact that they actually have teams there. Only that they haven't moved.
Well the Jets moved to Phoenix under Bettman's watch, so there's that.
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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Hockey Widow » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:29 pm

He also saved Ottawa and Buffalo. Not that I care about Buffalo but I am always happy when a Canadian franchise stays in Canada.
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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Topper » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:01 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:He also saved Ottawa and Buffalo.
Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver.

$0.88 today ........
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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Strangelove » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:27 pm

Topper wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:He also saved Ottawa and Buffalo.
Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver.

$0.88 today ........
Burkanomics?
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Re: Seattle Getting Closer?

Post by Meds » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:54 am

Strangelove wrote: The current situation in Phoenix and Florida do belong to him, but not the fact that they actually have teams there. Only that they haven't moved.
Well the Jets moved to Phoenix under Bettman's watch, so there's that.[/quote]

Yes, but Winnipeg's city council forced the Jets out. Their owners finally said screw it when the city wanted more and the Jets were already struggling thanks in part to the Canadian dollar. Phoenix is a big US center and was worth at least a shot.

I'm not really sure what other cities were vying for a team at the time, so if he vetoed somewhere like Seattle at that time then it is all on him. :P

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