If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would ya?

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Locked

If trading Horvat + 6th pick was the only way to acquire the 2014 1st pick, would ya do it?

Poll ended at Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:43 am

YES! YES! YES!
9
18%
NO means NO.
37
76%
Other (Please explain in post)
3
6%
 
Total votes: 49

Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:22 am

The Brown Knight wrote:
Aaronp18 wrote:
The Brown Knight wrote: But still - we have guys like Edler, Tanev, Burrows, Hansen, and Higgins that should capture some interest. What if it was our 6th overall + 1 or 2 of those guys I mentioned?
This is essentially what every reasonable poster has been saying throughout this thread.

We don't see Benning parting with the 6th and Horvat for the 1st overall, it's too much for Reinhart. It's no secret Tallon is looking for vets on defense, we have some that may be willing to waive to play in FLA.

Tallon may have started with the 6th and Horvat, but it's like any negotiation - start high and work your way back to what you actually expect!
Agreed.

Like I said, I'd would much much rather keep onto Horvat as I think BoHo could be an excellent two-way second line center one day, but I would be willing to do Horvat + 6th overall. That's where me, and a few others, disagree with the mass majority but this thread will definitely be one that we should revisit in a few years. :P
That's the million dollar question. The Canucks fan base here seem blinded that it's a fait accompli that Bo will be "an excellent two-way second line center one day" while as I pointed out, that some "scouting experts" that Kuzma has talked to think he might just end up being a 3rd liner.

Similar their are doubts on whether The Son Of Paul will end up being a No. 1 Franchise Centre or just an okay 2L C, but the difference here is that at least The Son Of Paul has a "reasonable" chance to be a No. 1 Centre while no reasonable person projects the No. 1C tag as being realistic for Bo.

Look, Linden taken 2nd overall, for a period of time was a "Franchise C" ... during the year he led the Canucks to the 1994 Stanley Cup Finals. In their entire history, Henrik is their only "Franchise C" for a period of time, and it took a No. 3 overall pick to select him ...... Linden was a converted winger, but was a 1C during his peak years (well at least during the 1994 Playoffs Run). :mex:

User avatar
Chef Boi RD
CC Legend
Posts: 15514
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Chef Boi RD » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:23 am

Hey Clambake, delusions are running rampant here but yeah at the end if the day Florida keeps their pick, Canucks keep their 6th. Who they are picking is a toss up between Virtanen and Nylander

Florida - Reinhart
Buffalo - Draisaitl
Edmonton - Ekblad
Calgary - Bennett
Islanders - Dal Colle
Vancouver - Virtanen or Nylander

Or

Florida - Ekblad
Buffalo - Reinhart
Edmonton - Draisaitl
Calgary - Bennett
Islanders - Dal Colle
Vancouver - Virtanen
Carolina - Nylander
Toronto - Perlini
Winnipeg - Ritchie
Anaheim - Ehlers
"I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening? - Plastics." - The Graduate

Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:29 am

RoyalDude wrote:Hey Clambake, delusions are running rampant here but yeah at the end if the day Florida keeps their pick, Canucks keep their 6th. Who they are picking is a toss up between Virtanen and Nylander

Florida - Reinhart
Buffalo - Draisaitl
Edmonton - Ekblad
Calgary - Bennett
Islanders - Dal Colle
Vancouver - Virtanen or Nylander

Or

Florida - Ekblad
Buffalo - Reinhart
Edmonton - Draisaitl
Calgary - Bennett
Islanders - Dal Colle
Vancouver - Virt or Nylander
If I was Linden and Co., and the scenario is what you laid out, I'd take the home run swing and go for Nylander. He'd be the only C remaining that has the skills that gives him a chance to be a 1st liner. :mex:
Last edited by Betamax on Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
herb
CC Legend
Posts: 3014
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by herb » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:49 am

ClamRussel wrote:Yes, but some people tend to talk abo prospects as if they really know or have seen them. The consensus is not 1a but that doesn't really mean anything either. Daigle was projected as elite superstar and he could barely play in the league. Henrik wasn't projected as a 1a and yet look at his career. Who knows.
That's the problem and why I am always wary of projections.

I prefer to stockpile as many quality prospects as we can and work to develop them into quality pros rather than bet the farm on one guy.

Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:53 am

via: http://www.kootenayice.net/game_worn_jerseys

Image
Game Worn Jerseys Available for Sale

Current Game Worn Jersey Inventory


3
Jordan Steenbergen
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
4
Landon Cross
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
5
Jagger Dirk
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
6
Dylan Overdyk
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
7
Tyler King
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
9
Kyle O'Connor
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
10
Austin Wellsby
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
11
Jon Martin
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
15
Austin Vetterl
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
16
Hudson Elynuik
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
18
No Name
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
19
Zach McPhee
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
21
Matt Alfaro
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
22
Zak Zborosky
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
24
Rinat Valiev
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 400.00
26
Levi Cable
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
28
Landon Peel
2013-14
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 300.00
3
Jordan Steenbergen
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
4
Landon Cross
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
6
Dylan Overdyk
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
7
Tyler King
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
9
Kyle O'Connor
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
10
Austin Wellsby
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
11
Jon Martin
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
12
Luke Philp
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 400.00
15
Austin Vetterl
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
16
Hudson Elynuik
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
18
No Name
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
21
Matt Alfaro
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
22
Zak Zborosky
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
24
Rinat Valiev
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 400.00
26
Levi Cable
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
27
Tanner Faith
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 400.00
28
Landon Peel
2013-14
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
6
Dylan Overdyk
2013-14
Reebok
Home (White)
$ 300.00
10
Austin Wellsby
2013-14
Reebok
Home (White)
$ 300.00
16
Hudson Elynuik
2013-14
Reebok
Home (White)
$ 300.00
18
No Name
2013-14
Reebok
Home (White)
$ 300.00
23
Sam Reinhart (Autographed)
2012-13
Reebok
Home (White)
$ 1,500.00
23
Sam Reinhart (Autographed)
2012-13
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 1,500.00

6
Luke Paulsen
2011-12
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
10
Sam Reinhart (Autographed)
2011-12
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 1,500.00

17
Jon Martin
2011-12
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
6
Luke Paulsen
2011-12
Reebok
Home (White)
$ 300.00
10
Sam Reinhart (Autographed)
2011-12
Reebok
Home (White)
$ 1,500.00

22
Eric Benoit
2011-12
Reebok
Home (White)
$ 300.00
10
Tanner Faith
2010-11
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
16
Jeff Hubic
2010-11
Reebok
Third (Blue)
$ 300.00
10
Dominik Pacovsky
2009-10
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 200.00
14
Simon Skrudland
2009-10
Reebok
Road (Black)
$ 200.00
24
Brendan Hurley
2008-09
Reebok
Road (Blue)
$ 200.00
1
Todd Matthews
2008-09
Reebok
Road (Blue)
$ 200.00
10
Dominik Pacovsky
2008-09
Reebok
Road (Blue)
$ 200.00
22
Jordan Bauer
2008-09
Reebok
Road (Blue)
$ 200.00
6
Eric Frere
2007-08
Reebok
Road (Blue)
$ 200.00
8
Zach Sim
2007-08
Reebok
Road (Blue)
$ 200.00
5
Lukas Bohunicky
2006-07
Reebok
Road (Blue)
$ 200.00

*PLUS GST
So, The Son Of Paul's Game Worn Junior Jerseys' goes for 5-7+ times the amount charge for an "ordinary" Junior Player.

Anyway, I guess when, duh, Edler's traded he could take over No. 23. 8-)

I wonder if the players' get a cut from the sale? :mex:

User avatar
herb
CC Legend
Posts: 3014
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by herb » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:55 am

Aaronp18 wrote:
The Brown Knight wrote: But still - we have guys like Edler, Tanev, Burrows, Hansen, and Higgins that should capture some interest. What if it was our 6th overall + 1 or 2 of those guys I mentioned?
This is essentially what every reasonable poster has been saying throughout this thread.

We don't see Benning parting with the 6th and Horvat for the 1st overall, it's too much for Reinhart. It's no secret Tallon is looking for vets on defense, we have some that may be willing to waive to play in FLA.

Tallon may have started with the 6th and Horvat, but it's like any negotiation - start high and work your way back to what you actually expect!
*insert face slap emoticon here*

User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Legend
Posts: 4182
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Raqqa

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Rumsfeld » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:08 pm

Using Daigle as an example of why not to trade up is as silly as using Datsyuk as a reason to only draft players in the 5th round.

He was a total anomaly, a first overall that busted out the way he did.

Look at the last 15 first overall picks.... pretty amazing group and I doubt this year will be any exception. Yakupov is probably the worst 1st overall I can think of in the last while and he is still very young and a Russian headcase.

Is Reinhart goint to be a generational talent? Of course not, there are only a few players like that in the league at any given time. But I'm willing to bet any poster on this board that he turns into a damned good 1st line NHL center, and probably a consistent PPG player or better.

That said, I too like the idea of stockpiling talent and giving ourselves a better chance of a superstar breaking out that way. If we can't use the roster players we already have to move up (Kesler, Edler, Garrison, Burrows, etc) it might not be worth it.
Chairman of the Jim Benning Appreciation Society

User avatar
Todd Bersnoozi
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 2483
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:14 pm

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Todd Bersnoozi » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:49 pm

Virtanan and Nylander are getting a lot of props on this thread, but don't count out Nick Ritchie. He has the package of size and skillz that the Nucks would luv and seems to skate well for a big man and has a nice release. There is a feature on him on canucks.com, popped in almost 40Gs in his draft year and has a bit of a mean streak with 136PIMs. Who knows, he might be the next Taylor Pyatt, but maybe he'll be the next Lucic/Benn type. Gillis & company leaned heavily in the OHL last draft, it'll be interesting to see if Trev & Benning go the same way.



With this being his first draft as the big boss, I kind of look forward to seeing Trev going up there saying: "The Vancouver Canucks are proud to select from the _______ _______, _______ _______." :D

User avatar
ClamRussel
CC Legend
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:50 am
Location: New South Wales, Australia

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by ClamRussel » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:52 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Using Daigle as an example of why not to trade up is as silly as using Datsyuk as a reason to only draft players in the 5th round.

He was a total anomaly, a first overall that busted out the way he did.

Look at the last 15 first overall picks.... pretty amazing group and I doubt this year will be any exception. Yakupov is probably the worst 1st overall I can think of in the last while and he is still very young and a Russian headcase.

Is Reinhart goint to be a generational talent? Of course not, there are only a few players like that in the league at any given time. But I'm willing to bet any poster on this board that he turns into a damned good 1st line NHL center, and probably a consistent PPG player or better.

That said, I too like the idea of stockpiling talent and giving ourselves a better chance of a superstar breaking out that way. If we can't use the roster players we already have to move up (Kesler, Edler, Garrison, Burrows, etc) it might not be worth it.
Actually Datsyuk is a great example & only backs up my Daigle point - the scouts & media sometimes get it wrong, VERY wrong. Datsyuk is not a example of great drafting, he's an example of poor scouting & just how off they can be. You're correct these are both extreme examples. So Reinhart turning into a pt per game 1a or 2 centre is entirely possible & realistic. For sure he could be more than that as well. Betamax thinks are some doubts as to whether he will be a "franchise no. 1 center ". I'll say there are! In fact I've never heard one reputable source make those projections. Totally unrealistic expectations. If the scouts thought he realistically could be a franchise no.1 center there's no way a no.2 or 3 defenceman would be in competition for the top selection or ranked higher in some cases. No one sees Ekblad as a true no.1 D. That's very telling as to how Reinhart fits in to most evaluations.
"Once a King, always a King" -Mike Murphy

User avatar
ClamRussel
CC Legend
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:50 am
Location: New South Wales, Australia

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by ClamRussel » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:11 pm

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:Virtanan and Nylander are getting a lot of props on this thread, but don't count out Nick Ritchie. He has the package of size and skillz that the Nucks would luv and seems to skate well for a big man and has a nice release. There is a feature on him on canucks.com, popped in almost 40Gs in his draft year and has a bit of a mean streak with 136PIMs. Who knows, he might be the next Taylor Pyatt, but maybe he'll be the next Lucic/Benn type. Gillis & company leaned heavily in the OHL last draft, it'll be interesting to see if Trev & Benning go the same way.



With this being his first draft as the big boss, I kind of look forward to seeing Trev going up there saying: "The Vancouver Canucks are proud to select from the _______ _______, _______ _______." :D
I'm more of a fan of Virtanen for his speed, we've all seen how important that is...and Nylander has so much offensive upside...but yes, the thought of Kassian & Ritchie manning the wings is quite enticing. Imagine those 2 barrelling down on opposing D!
"Once a King, always a King" -Mike Murphy

Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:18 pm

ClamRussel wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Using Daigle as an example of why not to trade up is as silly as using Datsyuk as a reason to only draft players in the 5th round.

He was a total anomaly, a first overall that busted out the way he did.

Look at the last 15 first overall picks.... pretty amazing group and I doubt this year will be any exception. Yakupov is probably the worst 1st overall I can think of in the last while and he is still very young and a Russian headcase.

Is Reinhart goint to be a generational talent? Of course not, there are only a few players like that in the league at any given time. But I'm willing to bet any poster on this board that he turns into a damned good 1st line NHL center, and probably a consistent PPG player or better.

That said, I too like the idea of stockpiling talent and giving ourselves a better chance of a superstar breaking out that way. If we can't use the roster players we already have to move up (Kesler, Edler, Garrison, Burrows, etc) it might not be worth it.
Actually Datsyuk is a great example & only backs up my Daigle point - the scouts & media sometimes get it wrong, VERY wrong. Datsyuk is not a example of great drafting, he's an example of poor scouting & just how off they can be. You're correct these are both extreme examples. So Reinhart turning into a pt per game 1a or 2 centre is entirely possible & realistic. For sure he could be more than that as well. Betamax thinks are some doubts as to whether he will be a "franchise no. 1 center ". I'll say there are! In fact I've never heard one reputable source make those projections. Totally unrealistic expectations. If the scouts thought he realistically could be a franchise no.1 center there's no way a no.2 or 3 defenceman would be in competition for the top selection or ranked higher in some cases. No one sees Ekblad as a true no.1 D. That's very telling as to how Reinhart fits in to most evaluations.
Well mckeens hockey's director of scouting was on TEAM Radio this week and compared him to Ron Francis. Do you consider Francis a no. 1 center? Last time I checked, Francis was in the HOF. The point I was trying to make was that pretty much everyone of the Canucks' fanbase thinks it's a fait accompli that Horvat will be a 2L C, while as I pointed that there are similar doubts to Horvat reaching his ceiling as there is with The Son Of Paul which is a 1L C.

I have never heard or read anyone that thinks Horvat can be a 1L C while there is a reasonable chance that The Son Of Paul will achieve that stature. :mex:
Last edited by Betamax on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Legend
Posts: 4182
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Raqqa

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Rumsfeld » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:26 pm

ClamRussel wrote: In fact I've never heard one reputable source make those projections. Totally unrealistic expectations. If the scouts thought he realistically could be a franchise no.1 center there's no way a no.2 or 3 defenceman would be in competition for the top selection or ranked higher in some cases. No one sees Ekblad as a true no.1 D. That's very telling as to how Reinhart fits in to most evaluations.
You do realize McKinnon was by no means a lock to go first last year, right?

Yeah, it's not the deepest draft but the top 5 or so players are highly likely to be impact players in the NHL, just like every year. The difference is that last year there were about 10 players that you could say this about.
Last edited by Rumsfeld on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chairman of the Jim Benning Appreciation Society

User avatar
ClamRussel
CC Legend
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:50 am
Location: New South Wales, Australia

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by ClamRussel » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:40 pm

Absolutely, but the catch is there weren't such looming question marks about last year's crop as there are this time around. The big difference is McKinnon was considered a true no.1 C and Seth Jones a true no.1 D. Even Drouin at 3 had less concerns than Reinhart & Ekblad.
"Once a King, always a King" -Mike Murphy

Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:46 pm

ClamRussel wrote:Absolutely, but the catch is there weren't such looming question marks about last year's crop as there are this time around. The big difference is McKinnon was considered a true no.1 C and Seth Jones a true no.1 D. Even Drouin at 3 had less concerns than Reinhart & Ekblad.
Yeah, but what about the point that best case scenario, Bo turns into a 2C, while best case scenario, The Son Of Paul turns into a 1C. Now it's debatable on what the probabilities on each player turning into their so-called "best case scenario" ..... but it's pretty clear to see at worst, The Son Of Paul is in a group of 4 prospects that will be selected in the TOP 4. The Canucks pick 6 and even if he drops out of the top 4, you don't think the NYI will pick him? :mex:

User avatar
ClamRussel
CC Legend
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:50 am
Location: New South Wales, Australia

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by ClamRussel » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:13 pm

Betamax wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:Absolutely, but the catch is there weren't such looming question marks about last year's crop as there are this time around. The big difference is McKinnon was considered a true no.1 C and Seth Jones a true no.1 D. Even Drouin at 3 had less concerns than Reinhart & Ekblad.
Yeah, but what about the point that best case scenario, Bo turns into a 2C, while best case scenario, The Son Of Paul turns into a 1C. Now it's debatable on what the probabilities on each player turning into their so-called "best case scenario" ..... but it's pretty clear to see at worst, The Son Of Paul is in a group of 4 prospects that will be selected in the TOP 4. The Canucks pick 6 and even if he drops out of the top 4, you don't think the NYI will pick him? :mex:
For one thing, just because some scouts & media parrot something doesn't make it true. How do you know Bo will only be a 2C best case scenerio? Lots can happen in the development process. Look at Mike Peca. What did the scouts say about him when he was drafted. What was his upside and best case scenerio?
Secondly, you need awesome 2nd line centers to do anything so you don't just trade them willy nilly. Maybe Reinhart turns into our 2C and Horvat is 3 - even better! That means we actually have depth. You mentioned Francis, he had his career rejuvenated when he went to Pitt, played w/ Jagr & the point on a PP w/ Lemieux, Coffey etc. So he was a no.1 in the 2 spot on a loaded team. Does that make him a 1b? No way in hell he puts up those numbers if he stayed in Hartford. What about the Flames w/ Niewendyk/Gilmour/Otto? Was Gilmour a 2 or a 1b in the 2 spot? Hindsight is 20/20. He was certainly a 1a in Toronto but would Calgary have traded him for Leeman if they knew his best years were still ahead of him?
"Once a King, always a King" -Mike Murphy

Locked