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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:14 pm
by ClamRussel
Rumsfeld wrote:
Tciso wrote:Reinhart might be a great player, but he is projected right now to be a middle of the road #1 center. Horvat is projected to be about the same, albeit with a different style of play.
Horvat is projected to be a good two-way 2nd-line center. The only people projecting him to be a first-liner are the kids over at HF.

Reinhart is projected to be an offensive first-line center. He has a much higher trade value than Horvat.

And regardless of what we do, Gaunce won't be on the second line, Shinkaruk will still be in junior, and Fox most likely won't even be in the NHL.
Actually, he is projected to potentially be a no.1 center...more accurately a 1b or a 2 center. The jury is still out. Certainly that would depend on how deep his team is. Reinhart is hardly a franchise center a team should hitch it's wagon to. He'd be a welcome addition to the Canucks stable but so too would be Bennett or a Dal Cole.

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:29 pm
by ClamRussel
The Brown Knight wrote:
ClamRussel wrote: No wonder you want to give up Horvat + the 6th, you think Reinhart is the next Sakic or Toews. .
I don't think anyone has said that on here if I'm not mistake.

NO ONE is putting Reinhart in the same weight class as Sakic, Toews, Crosby, and McDavid/MacKinnon/Eichel.

What most people are saying however, including me, is that Reinhart has a very strong chance of being as good as guys like Kopitar, Getzlaf, Lecavlier (in this prime), etc.

When guys like that are available, you bite the boner and make the move..........even if it involves trading a Bo Horvat who could realistically end up being as good as a Mike Richards.

Mike Richards + 6th overall for Anze Kopitar or Ryan Getzlaf.

WOULD YOU DO IT.
Well, you're mistaken. In this thread he has been called a "bonafide franchise center"
Laughable.

You don't win without depth and Horvat has proven to be a clutch performer. If you trade players like Horvat plus a top 6 pick you damn well be getting more than a potential 1b center.

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:01 am
by SKYO
ClamRussel wrote:Actually, he is projected to potentially be a no.1 center...more accurately a 1b or a 2 center. The jury is still out. Certainly that would depend on how deep his team is. Reinhart is hardly a franchise center a team should hitch it's wagon to. He'd be a welcome addition to the Canucks stable but so too would be Bennett or a Dal Cole.
You read blogs online just like the rest of us...but more accurately he projects to be a top 10-15 center in the league. So that's definitely a 1A center.

http://pantherparkway.com/2014/06/11/20 ... -reinhart/
MO: How high is Reinhart’s ceiling? What role do you project him to fill when he reaches his prime?

CN: I think he has the ability to be a middle of the pack 1st line center. That might sound harsh, but I think he could end up being a guy that’s not quite a top 10 center in the NHL, but is more of a guy who is ranked 10-15 in that area of the league. I don’t see him as a true franchise cornerstone guy, even though I’m sure some scouts do. Ideally for me he would be a guy that is one day a fantastic second line center on a championship-caliber team. I think he’ll be a captain of an NHL team one day and a guy that can play first line powerplay minutes and also someone who can kill penalties if you need him to.
MO: What would you say are Reinhart’s most attractive assets as an NHL prospect?

CN: First things first, his hockey sense. In my several years following the WHL and hockey prospects closely, I don’t think I’ve seen a player as smart as Sam Reinhart. He processes the game at such a high level, really approaches his offensive attack like a game of chess. He knows where to go to and where to put pucks in order to generate offensive chances. To go along with that, his passing ability and vision are both phenomenal. You mix in a shot that’s steadily improved over the last few years and you have a guy that can beat you in a variety of ways, and often does.
In the end, with a gun to my head, I say Reinhart plays in the NHL in 2014-15.
Reinhart keeps referencing Toews as who he watches and wants to emulate, just hard working with high IQ plays while being in the right place at the right time - to be clutch.

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:57 am
by Boston Canucker
A potential Kesler deal will tell the tale of this idea of going after the #1 pick. If it happens what sort of picks/prospects does Benning get back, what kind of flexibility does it give him in constructing a deal etc? Without such a deal, I don't see Benning moving Horvat/6 pick for #1. He needs to have already bolstered the prospect/coffers beforehand to advance the youth movement, provide some cushion.

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:38 am
by The Brown Knight
ClamRussel wrote: Well, you're mistaken. In this thread he has been called a "bonafide franchise center"
Laughable.

You don't win without depth and Horvat has proven to be a clutch performer. If you trade players like Horvat plus a top 6 pick you damn well be getting more than a potential 1b center.
I understand what you're saying Clam, and do understand the importance of depth, but it seems to me like you're saying this with the assumption that all/most of our draft picks will pan out. Drafts don't work that way.

More times than not, draft picks do not pan out as expected.............and this risk increases exponentially as you move away from the Top 3 picks in a first round draft.

Let me give you an example. I'll use the time frame from 1997 to about 2000 since it was around this time period when the Canucks were as bad as they are now. I'll extend it to 2003 since that was the year we snagged Kesler.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/team ... 08756.html

1997: Brad Ference, Ryan Bonni, Harold Druken. Our best pick that year was Matt Cooke in the 6th round.
1998: Bryan Allen, Artem Chubarov, Jarko Ruutu.
1999: Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin, Rene Vydareny. ***In this draft, we trade McCabe and 1st overall pick in 2000.......Chicago's pick ends up being Mikhail Yakubov*
2000: Nathan Smith, Thatcher Bell, Tim Branham
2001: RJ Umberger, Fedor Fedorov, Evegeny Gladskikh. Our best pick that year was Kevin Bieksa.
2002: *more crap*
2003: Ryan Kesler (23rd overall pick). + more crap.

Conclusions to make from this?

1) Most of our draft selections didn't make the Canucks. Therefore, building depth through the draft, atleast through our experience, is only a good concept in theory.

2) In those 6 years of drafting, our two biggest steals were Kesler in 2003 and Bieksa in 2001. In the grand scheme of things however, finding "steals" with late 1st round picks or in later rounds has very low probability of success.

3) Our BEST draft move over the past 15 years, was in trading Bryan McCabe and our 2000 first round pick (ends up being Mikhail Yakubov) for the 2nd overall pick in 1999 in which we draft Daniel Sedin. Did the move have risks associated with it? Yes. For all we know, Burke could have ended up drafting Pavel Brendl and someone else that was highly touted (non Sedin). Like a Tim Connolly for instance. However - In this case, I think it's safe to say that the rewards completely blew away the potential negatives (i.e. McCabe + 2000 1st for Brendl and Connolly would've been seen as a regular 'bust'/bad deal, whereas McCabe + 2000 1st for the Sedins' was seen as a MAJOR MAJOR lopsided win).


Remember Cody Hodgson?

Clam, if I recall correctly, you were REALLY singing the praises of Cody Hodgson a few years ago when we drafted him. I think I remember you even mentioning that you thought he could be of a similar mold to Dale Howerchuk. While Hodgson still looks like he will be a decent player, do you still hold him in the same regard? What if the Canucks had traded Hodgson and say a 1st in 2009 for Alex Pietrangelo (drafted 4th) or Drew Doughty? (drafted 2nd). How would you have reacted to an idea like this in 2008/2009 had fans/management pondered this idea?

Final Conclusion:

Building depth through a draft is an overrated and weak concept since most draft picks do not pan out. The best strategy appears to be getting the highest draft pick possible in terms of lowest risk and highest potential for ROI.

Try and acquire the highest draft pick possible, and let them develop properly by not putting them into roles that they aren't ready for (i.e. something that Edmonton and Florida are very guilty of).

Build a team around said core players when said core players are ready. Sign core players to long term below market value contracts and cap hits. By signing these core players to long term below market value contracts and cap hits, it then allows a team to have enough cap space to have depth on other lines. This depth comes from 'lucky' draft picks that pan out, and from free agent signings.

-Get your core players first via draft. Strive to draft as high as possible for highest potential ROI and lowest amount of risk.
Sign them long term and below market value.
-Once you have done this, THEN you can add depth via lucky draft picks and/or free agent signings.

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:40 am
by Chef Boi RD
It's amazing the legs that the Horvat plus 6th pick for Reinhart has when all it is is just a ridiculous fabrication/idea by that fucking ass-hat scribe - Ben Kuzma.

The only way Benning can muster a package that would remotely interest Tallon is through parts recieved/3 way trade via Kesler. Otherwise, the trade will not happen.'

I fully expect that the Canucks to walk away from the draft, picking 6th, with one of these names - Virtanen or Nylander

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:45 am
by The Brown Knight
RoyalDude wrote:It's amazing the legs that the Horvat plus 6th pick for Reinhart has when all it is is just a ridiculous fabrication/idea by that fucking ass-hat scribe - Ben Kuzma.
RoyalDude,

I'm surprised that you of all people would be annoyed by the idea of moving up in the draft. Or fans being excited by the idea of this.

I thought we were similar to each other in regards to being bold and going for it.

No guts no glory? Go big or go home?

Wasn't one of your biggest issues with Gillis was in his ultra conservative approach at times?

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:48 am
by The Brown Knight
RoyalDude wrote:It's amazing the legs that the Horvat plus 6th pick for Reinhart has when all it is is just a ridiculous fabrication/idea by that fucking ass-hat scribe - Ben Kuzma.
True, but where there is smoke there is usually fire. How is this rumor any different from the rumor of Kesler wanting out of Vancouver?
The only way Benning can muster a package that would remotely interest Tallon is through parts recieved/3 way trade via Kesler. Otherwise, the trade will not happen.'
True, but if Benning wants Reinhart as badly as I suspect he does, then I think he'll find a way to make it work (within reason of course).

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:49 am
by Chef Boi RD
The Brown Knight wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:It's amazing the legs that the Horvat plus 6th pick for Reinhart has when all it is is just a ridiculous fabrication/idea by that fucking ass-hat scribe - Ben Kuzma.
RoyalDude,

I'm surprised that you of all people would be annoyed by the idea of moving up in the draft.

I thought we were similar to each other in regards to being bold and going for it.

No guts no glory? Go big or go home?

Wasn't one of your biggest issues with Gillis was in his ultra conservative approach at times?
It's not a question of wanting to make the deal, it's a question of having the cards to play with and clearly Garam Marsala, we don't have the cards. Bo Horvat is not in play, get over it

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:56 am
by The Brown Knight
RoyalDude wrote: It's not a question of wanting to make the deal, it's a question of having the cards to play with and clearly Garam Marsala, we don't have the cards. Bo Horvat is not in play, get over it
If it's vets that Florida wants and they don't want/need Horvat, then that's great! I'd obviously rather keep Horvat.

But still - we have guys like Edler, Tanev, Burrows, Hansen, and Higgins that should capture some interest. What if it was our 6th overall + 1 or 2 of those guys I mentioned?

But yes - I agree that if a team like LA offers someone like Mike Richards, we are screwed.

I was just going by the rumored deal (someone had mentioned that Tallon had specifically asked for Horvat and the 6th).

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:00 am
by Chef Boi RD
The Brown Knight wrote:
RoyalDude wrote: True, but where there is smoke there is usually fire. How is this rumor any different from the rumor of Kesler wanting out of Vancouver?
.
Taj Mahal, stop asking question you already know the answers to. You just keep on rolling with elementary questions, rolling like that dude who summersaulted across India, remember that guy?

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:10 am
by Chef Boi RD
His name was Lotan Baba otherwise known as the rolling saint. A holy man rolling for peace, he's rolled thousands of kilometres.

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:12 pm
by Strangelove
The Brown Knight wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:It's amazing the legs that the Horvat plus 6th pick for Reinhart has when all it is is just a ridiculous fabrication/idea by that fucking ass-hat scribe - Ben Kuzma.
True, but where there is smoke there is usually fire. How is this rumor any different from the rumor of Kesler wanting out of Vancouver?
THERE IS NO SMOKE. :roll:

(unless you call what blows out of the ass of certain folks "smoke")

The "difference" being that we have a lower echelon hack saying "Hey how about this guys...")

versus top hacks saying "I have heard from reliable sources that..."

The "difference" is SPECULATION versus RUMOUR.

Hey GM, you do realize that you can't WILL Reinhart to Vancouver right? :look:

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:13 pm
by Strangelove
The Brown Knight wrote: I was just going by the rumored deal (someone had mentioned that Tallon had specifically asked for Horvat and the 6th).
Link?

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:34 pm
by The Brown Knight
Strangelove wrote:
THERE IS NO SMOKE. :roll:

(unless you call what blows out of the ass of certain folks "smoke")

The "difference" being that we have a lower echelon hack saying "Hey how about this guys...")

versus top hacks saying "I have heard from reliable sources that..."

The "difference" is SPECULATION versus RUMOUR.
Fair enough.
Hey GM, you do realize that you can't WILL Reinhart to Vancouver right? :look:
Meh.

I have a horrible flu.

Got nothing better to do other than to express my wills over a message board right now. :oops: