Canucks Goaltending Issue

[Island Nucklehead]

IN knows whats up, we should know via Lu that a goalie's mind is a fragile thing, having two pretty much rookies leading this team could really mess with the minds of our team, you can see the confidence in a team when they don't have to worry about the goalie playing.

Bringing in a vet to help the team and mentor Lack (most likely) I think is a sound plan to make this team much more competitive immediately.

Well, when I'm sober I do alright...

I guess I'm not significantly opposed to letting the two youngsters go at it. I just don't think that's the best course of action if Lindenning thinks we're a playoff team. If we do, I hope everyone's expectations are lowered significantly. I don't know how they're going to split the time up, but it's kind of a given Lack would be expected to play 50+ games. Seems a bit unreasonable to expect that much out of him. It seems that when guys are developing that consistency, they can go 1-2 stellar games followed by 3-5 stinkers. It's a major difference between true NHL goalies and AHL tenders.

Florida really butchered Marstrom's development, to the point that the couple games they gave him in 10/11 and 11/12 have made him waiver eligible. That puts the Canucks in a tough spot of either carrying a goalie that isn't ready, or risking him to waivers. Pretty tough call, but honestly it seems like Markstrom would be better suited in the AHL. His GAA at the NHL level is well north of 3 and a sub.900%, so barring significant development in the offseason we're likely to lose more games wtih him in net than we win.

If the plan is to shit the bed this season, then I guess it really doesn't matter. In fact, the more we play him the more likely we are to get a better draft choice. But at the same time that probably ruins him as an NHL goalie, and who knows if Lack can handle that starters load, we might ruin him too.

Colour me conflicted. I'd like to say we have a great young goaltending tandem that needs some seasoning, but we've all seen the Oilers and leaves do that dance and it hasn't been pretty. There's also the "goalie graveyard" factor, I would say we're equally likely to ruin both goalies as we are to see them improve significantly as a tandem.

[herb]

Bringing in a vet to help the team and mentor Lack (most likely) I think is a sound plan to make this team much more competitive immediately.

And this is where your thought process fails you.

We need to get younger, and we need our younger players growing into bigger roles. We don't need to bring in veterans to take ice and practice time away from the few young promising players we have.

Lack is 26 and has been a pro for parts of 5 seasons now.

Markstrom has been a pro for even longer - since 2007.

If these guys aren't ready to be NHL players this fall, they likely will never be.

If after a full off season and training camp working with Rollie Melanson one of these guys isn't ready, then you give up on them and get that veteran help (which is cheap and easy to get during the season).

Why waste cap space and a roster spot now?

[ClamRussel]

If the plan is to shit the bed this season, then I guess it really doesn't matter. In fact, the more we play him the more likely we are to get a better draft choice. But at the same time that probably ruins him as an NHL goalie, and who knows if Lack can handle that starters load, we might ruin him too.

Colour me conflicted. I'd like to say we have a great young goaltending tandem that needs some seasoning, but we've all seen the Oilers and leaves do that dance and it hasn't been pretty. There's also the "goalie graveyard" factor, I would say we're equally likely to ruin both goalies as we are to see them improve significantly as a tandem.

The flaw in this thread is the assumption that by going w/ unproven goalies it's a given we're tanking. There is a middle ground here, it's not a black & white end result. Consider that, quite likely we are competitive but not a powerhouse this season. It's the perfect time to hand the reigns over to younger-ish players or at least give them larger roles w/o fear they'll be benched after every mistake (ie AV & Torts). The Oilers had no veteran presence & subpar goaltending. Dubnyk was given the green light & he just wasn't good enough. Bryz was brought in as a veteran to solidify the team & that failed too. How can that be explained? They have larger issues than goaltending & vets can falter just as much as younger players. Things look like they'll work out w/ Bernier now who had no track record as a starter. Bottom line is there are no guarantees and sometimes there are happy endings.

We need to get younger, and we need our younger players growing into bigger roles. We don't need to bring in veterans to take ice and practice time away from the few young promising players we have.

Exactly! You never know, perhaps a deal is made to bring Cory back at some time. In the meantime I'm intrigued to see how Markstrom develops this year w/ Rollie.

[black ace]

Brodeur isint a mentor. he still sees himself as a starter.

[ClamRussel]

Brodeur isint a mentor. he still sees himself as a starter.

What mentor wouldn't?

[Island Nucklehead]

Consider that, quite likely we are competitive but not a powerhouse this season. It's the perfect time to hand the reigns over to younger-ish players or at least give them larger roles w/o fear they'll be benched after every mistake (ie AV & Torts).

This is where I disagree. We're likely to move Kesler for young players/prospects that will probably not replace his contribution at either end of the ice this season. Luongo is no longer here. We're counting on most of our players bouncing back, on what could be a worse roster that we entered last season with, as the main reason for success this season. On paper, "competitive" is going to be a serious stretch for this team, imo. Given that we had serious issues scoring WITH Kesler over the past couple seasons (not just a Torts thing), I'm leery about expecting a couple of young goalies with 88 NHL games under their belts to give us the consistent 2-1, 1-0 wins that we'll likely need to be competitive.

While it's fine to bring the young guys in and give them time, the forwards still have the Sedins/Burrows/Higgins etc. etc. to teach and cover for them. Who's going to cover for Lack when he loses 4 straight and Markstrom drops 2 in a row? Players can play their way out of scoring slumps, this town loves demolishing goalies. If the plan is to be competitive, the Canucks really should look at a veteran to platoon with Lack. If not, fine we'll just see what happens. Nothing I've seen indicates Lack is a 60 game goalie (yet), or Marktrom a regular NHL goalie. Would be happy to be proved wrong, but IMO it's poor management and an unreasonable expectation to assume these guys will win us enough games to be anywhere near a playoff spot.

I wouldn't expect Horvat to replace Kesler as 2nd line C next season, and I don't expect Lack/Markstrom to be as capable as Luongo/Lack.

[ClamRussel]

Consider that, quite likely we are competitive but not a powerhouse this season. It's the perfect time to hand the reigns over to younger-ish players or at least give them larger roles w/o fear they'll be benched after every mistake (ie AV & Torts).

This is where I disagree. We're likely to move Kesler for young players/prospects that will probably not replace his contribution at either end of the ice this season. Luongo is no longer here. We're counting on most of our players bouncing back, on what could be a worse roster that we entered last season with, as the main reason for success this season. On paper, "competitive" is going to be a serious stretch for this team, imo. Given that we had serious issues scoring WITH Kesler over the past couple seasons (not just a Torts thing), I'm leery about expecting a couple of young goalies with 88 NHL games under their belts to give us the consistent 2-1, 1-0 wins that we'll likely need to be competitive.

The difference is Hamhuis/Bieksa/Edler/Tanev/Garrison. Edmonton never had that. Thats a foundation to bring in young goalies and forwards with. We also have the Sedins/Burrows/Richardson/Higgins etc to ease in some young forwards. You're also assuming we aren't active w/ free agency. Kesler's contribution may be somewhat replaced there. We'll have to see how that plays out. Its time for Kassian to receive an extended run in the top 6 and w/ reg PP time. He's paid his dues, its time to see what we have there. My hunch is he replaces some of Kesler's production.

While it's fine to bring the young guys in and give them time, the forwards still have the Sedins/Burrows/Higgins etc. etc. to teach and cover for them. Who's going to cover for Lack when he loses 4 straight and Markstrom drops 2 in a row? Players can play their way out of scoring slumps, this town loves demolishing goalies. If the plan is to be competitive, the Canucks really should look at a veteran to platoon with Lack. If not, fine we'll just see what happens. Nothing I've seen indicates Lack is a 60 game goalie (yet), or Marktrom a regular NHL goalie. Would be happy to be proved wrong, but IMO it's poor management and an unreasonable expectation to assume these guys will win us enough games to be anywhere near a playoff spot.

I wouldn't expect Horvat to replace Kesler as 2nd line C next season, and I don't expect Lack/Markstrom to be as capable as Luongo/Lack.

They don't have to be. How many people last year argued we should trade Lu because Lack was ready and better than Lu? Now the sky is falling. They can split the games 50/50 to start and take it from there. If they hold their own - great, if not - JB can address that as need be. The thing is, shit went sideways for the team last year. Its not a good measuring stick for how things will be this year. Markstrom was long regarded the best goalie not in the NHL by far. He's since had his struggles but its not like he's just flopped over night. Its a process and I'm confident Rollie can get him up to that level again and beyond. Goalies take time, how much does Washington wish they kept Varlamov now? The Canucks are not elite at this point so be prepared for growing pains, in net too! They're coming but hopefully in the long run they're worth it.

[Island Nucklehead]

The difference is Hamhuis/Bieksa/Edler/Tanev/Garrison. Edmonton never had that. Thats a foundation to bring in young goalies and forwards with. We also have the Sedins/Burrows/Richardson/Higgins etc to ease in some young forwards. You're also assuming we aren't active w/ free agency. Kesler's contribution may be somewhat replaced there. We'll have to see how that plays out. Its time for Kassian to receive an extended run in the top 6 and w/ reg PP time. He's paid his dues, its time to see what we have there. My hunch is he replaces some of Kesler's production.

This is part of my point. We bring in the young forwards to play while being supported by a veteran presence, but not in goal? It seems like the slow-and-cautious development that worked so well on Schnieder and appeared to be working on Lack will be completely scrapped for a "fuck it, let's see what happens" approach.

I wouldn't expect Horvat to replace Kesler as 2nd line C next season, and I don't expect Lack/Markstrom to be as capable as Luongo/Lack.

They can split the games 50/50 to start and take it from there. If they hold their own - great, if not - JB can address that as need be.

I can get behind this reasoning, but it seems to indicate a willingness to let the season slide if that's the direction it takes. Scrambling to find a backup goalie in mid-November could mean our season is already sunk, especially considering the division we're in. Personally, I'm okay with that. Growing pains and what not. Where I get worried is people placing too much expectation on these guys. Markstrom could be as likely to bust as be an NHL backup, let alone a star in the NHL.

[ClamRussel]

The difference is Hamhuis/Bieksa/Edler/Tanev/Garrison. Edmonton never had that. Thats a foundation to bring in young goalies and forwards with. We also have the Sedins/Burrows/Richardson/Higgins etc to ease in some young forwards. You're also assuming we aren't active w/ free agency. Kesler's contribution may be somewhat replaced there. We'll have to see how that plays out. Its time for Kassian to receive an extended run in the top 6 and w/ reg PP time. He's paid his dues, its time to see what we have there. My hunch is he replaces some of Kesler's production.

This is part of my point. We bring in the young forwards to play while being supported by a veteran presence, but not in goal? It seems like the slow-and-cautious development that worked so well on Schnieder and appeared to be working on Lack will be completely scrapped for a "fuck it, let's see what happens" approach.

I wouldn't expect Horvat to replace Kesler as 2nd line C next season, and I don't expect Lack/Markstrom to be as capable as Luongo/Lack.

They can split the games 50/50 to start and take it from there. If they hold their own - great, if not - JB can address that as need be.

I can get behind this reasoning, but it seems to indicate a willingness to let the season slide if that's the direction it takes. Scrambling to find a backup goalie in mid-November could mean our season is already sunk, especially considering the division we're in. Personally, I'm okay with that. Growing pains and what not. Where I get worried is people placing too much expectation on these guys. Markstrom could be as likely to bust as be an NHL backup, let alone a star in the NHL.

It's probably not ideal but it's the cards that are dealt after our goaltending situation was completely fucked up by previous coaches/GM. At this point I think it's best to see what we really have before jumping to conclusions. It's possible that 1 or both of these could be legit starters ...or not. But there's just way too much upside to risk waivers. I'm leery but intrigued as to how they'll make out this year.

[Island Nucklehead]

I'm leery but intrigued as to how they'll make out this year.

I'm down with that.

[SKYO]

It's probably not ideal but it's the cards that are dealt after our goaltending situation was completely fucked up by previous coaches/GM. At this point I think it's best to see what we really have before jumping to conclusions. It's possible that 1 or both of these could be legit starters ...or not. But there's just way too much upside to risk waivers. I'm leery but intrigued as to how they'll make out this year.

Our goaltending finally became elite after we swung for the fences and got Luongo, then we drafted Schneider and developed him correctly as a backup behind a vet, we had the best goaltending ever in this franchise thanks to these moves, then along comes MG and drops a couple nukes on that.

Now we got two fresh meat in net, I'm not comfortable throwing them both out to the wolves against the best in the West 50/50 for an entire season vs the Kings, Blackhawks, Ducks, Sharks, Stars, Avs etc all throughout the season...you guys have MG goggles on hoping they can under the tutelage of our goaltending coach to turn water into wine - and both learn on the job at the same time.

The big risk to me is that one goalie suffers and the other goalie gets relied on too much, subsequently putting him under too much unnecessary stress where he breaks down as well, another season wasted, another season our vet's get older.

The best way to develop a goalie is to get him a solid vet, who can comfortably play his games and allow Lack or Marky to learn and grow safely, similar to a young center getting protected minutes behind a veteran center.

I might add, as IN alluded to, trying to get another goalie midway through the season isn't as easy you think, right now we can get a decent goalie for free via UFA.

[herb]

Our goaltending finally became elite after we swung for the fences and got Luongo, then we drafted Schneider and developed him correctly as a backup behind a vet...

Oh, there's only one way to develop a goaltender?

OK then I guess that settles things.

[SKYO]

Our goaltending finally became elite after we swung for the fences and got Luongo, then we drafted Schneider and developed him correctly as a backup behind a vet...

Oh, there's only one way to develop a goaltender?

OK then I guess that settles things.

Yay I win!

[Strangelove]

Skyo, are you going to be disappointed when we start the season with Lack/Markstrom?

[dangler]

Can we change the thread title to SKYO's Goaltending Issue?